[George Pazin]

From another thread:

When I looked at the picture, my eye was drawn to the wiggly cart path, which I would not describe as beautiful.

As for the strategy of the hole, I guess I'd have to see the green in order to make an evaluation.  On paper, it looks like if you can carry it 260, you go straight at it, and if you can't, you go way around.  Not much of a decision for me.

Just out of curiosity, on how many of the world's great holes are you (meaning any poster on here, not Tom) faced with a difficult decision?

Personally, I tend to find tee shot decisions relatively straightforward - it's the ensuing mess that follows that brings out the real strategy. Of course, I haven't played many of the world's great holes, so I'm curious to learn from the experiences of others.

The biggest exception for me tends to be undefined tee shots on unfamiliar courses.

[ChipRoyce]

George;
Funny, I find that straightforward decisions are pretty easy.
Its the one's your not sure of that make for difficult golf (and usually lousy results). For instance, how many times will you bail out on a cape hole if you're not sure if you can carry the line you'd like?

[David Stamm]

I respectfully disagree, George. I can think of many holes where, despite my familiarity with the course, I faced some decisions. Several that come to mind are 3 and 14 at Rustic Canyon. 10 at Riviera is a classic example and is the main reason it is so good. How about a hole that was just discussed very recently, the 3rd at Pebble Beach? Wind conditions, how fast the course is playing, and ultimately how you are feeling are all vital in the decision making process and these examples, IMHO.

[George Pazin]

I respectfully disagree, George. I can think of many holes where, despite my familiarity with the course, I faced some decisions. Several that come to mind are 3 and 14 at Rustic Canyon. 10 at Riviera is a classic example and is the main reason it is so good. How about a hole that was just discussed very recently, the 3rd at Pebble Beach? Wind conditions, how fast the course is playing, and ultimately how you are feeling are all vital in the decision making process and these examples, IMHO.

David, just to be clear, I'm not saying all tee decisions are straightforward, I'm saying that the one's I've faced have been relatively straightforward. Certainly, that's probably due to 2 big things: 1) my relative lack of skill as a golfer and 2) the courses I've played.

I'm simply asking what makes, say, the tee shot decision at Pine Valley's 7th difficult. Or Pebble's 8th. Or the Road Hole (actually, that one I can definitely see being difficult because of the blind nature of the tee shot).

[Norbert P]

. . . the world's great holes are you faced with a difficult decision (from tee)?

 I'll choose Machrihanish's Battery - Hole #1.  It's an easy drive over a beach, Cape Hole strategy hole, but it's 7 AM,  just flown around the world, anticipation is beguiling the psyche, stiff, it's the Battery, too early for a drink. I am a solo rabbit golfer.  All I want to do is make it to the fairway - I choose the 5W and happily, elatedly, hit the fairway.  I could've gone closer toward the green, but I'm away, and my round is not beginning with a crash. (Though "the ensuing mess that follows" was inevitable.)

 So, the difficulty, for me, was the moment.  Not the actual layout.   Eventhough, in this case, I had two more rounds to really go for it. (2 for 3)

[Tommy Williamsen]

I view a tee shot almost as I view a shot to the green.  Generally there is place from which I want to hit my second shot.  I will try to hit it to a spot.  I love my 7 iron.  We have become grand friends.  On some holes where I could hit it to 8iron or 9 iron range I will hold back.  I want to know where the pin is.

One hole at my course is a severe dogleg left.  I have the choice to hit it over the trees and into 80 to 100 yard range or hit my eight iron.  Depending on the day and how I feel is where I will hit it.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

George,

Usually I have to ponder for awhile to determine whether to hit it 310 or 340 from the tee.   

My brain hurts.   

[Phil Benedict]

I think tee decisions depend mostly on how I feel about my swing on any particular day.  I am likely to be aggressive if I feel good about the way I'm swinging and conservative if I am uncomfortable with my swing.  I agree with George that there are very few holes where there's any decision at all.

[Garland Bayley]

... 1) my relative lack of skill as a golfer ...

For some of us who lack skill, it is a simple decision, go to the side of the tee that your typical ball turns towards, aim to the other edge of the fairway, pull the trigger, and hope your ball stays in play on the opposite side from which you aimed.

Cape holes. Always play away from the danger, etc.

Do we like it this way? No, we can see what the real options are, but have not the skill to pursue them.

[Peter Pallotta]

George -

I think one simple and/or traditional way of compelling a decision off the tee is the use of the diagonal ridge in the fairway, you know - where the shorter carry leaves a more difficult and longer second, while the longer carry is risky (i.e. you might not get over the ridge, or there's a bunker on that side) but brings advantages, like a better angle to the green or a  more pronouced slope on the backside that power boosts the ball even further down the fairway. From what I've read here, I think Pine Valley has a famous one, and lots of others. I've played a hole like that the last time I touched a club (The  Mines) and it really does work, even for a very middling player like me.

Peter

[George Pazin]

Peter, I used to think the diagonal tee shot was the ultimate until Tom D disabused me of the silly notion....

Actually, what Tom said did make a lot of sense (I think it was him, but t may have been someone else). He said that diagonal tee shots sound great and function well in theory, but in reality, they tend to only penalize the lesser player, as the better player is smart enough to leave plenty of room for error.

Plus, there aren't really any diagonal tee shots at Oakmont (unless one counts the 17th), so I can't hold that up as a great strategical element.

 

[Peter Pallotta]

George - interesting, but whoever said it, I think I'd disagree. If middling players are playing from the right set of tees, they might not be very good golfers but they're not idiots either - they know enough to leave room for error. Other than that, the visual interest and psychological hazard and shot-making challenge and strategic choice exist in the same way for all players...or so it seems to me.

Peter

[JSPayne]

George,

I think you might have already answered your own question, IMO, combined with Phil's answer.

I really think most tee shots, straightword, with options, risky or wide open are really only dependant on two things:

1) From your own mouth, the level of skill you have as a golfer.

Obviously, the BEST tee shots would be on a course that does the BEST job of implementing tees that accomodate golfers of all skills AND assumes that the golfers themselves play the right tees. If every skill of golfer played from the tips, for example, I think the only interesting options and strategies would present themselves to the low handicapper. Everyone else would have a "straightforward", I'm-just-trying-to-hit-the-fairway mentality about the shot. Likewise, if everyone played the forward tees, the low handicappers would likely bomb their shot over all the intended hazards and not have to think twice, while the higher handicapper dealt with options and strategies.

2) From Phil's idea, the way you yourself feel about your game on that particular day, and how much you want to challange the holes.

Even on a hole that may only present a straight-away fairway with no bunkering, I might reach in my bag for only a 3-wood if I've been shanking my driver all day. Conversely, if I've been striping them all day, I'd probably be more tempted to take on the risk/reward options that may be presented on the tee box.

In any case, while there may be "easy" tee shots and "challanging" tee shots, I think the level to which any tee shot (heck, any shot for that matter) can be classified is going to be dependant on those two factors, first and foremost.

To cite this specific example, in regards to the hole Tom's quote was referring to, I found it a great hole by evaluating it by the two standards above: (1) I was playing from the correct tees in that the 260 carry was at the limits of my abilities, and the hole also presented itself with other easier and perhaps more smart options than taking on the obvious risky shot and (2) the only reason I went for it was because I had been driving the ball well that day...if I couldn't keep a driver in bounds, I would have bailed out left with a 3 wood or iron.

By Tom's quote, he made it sound like a no brainer, but I don't agree. I had to stand on that tee and ask myself: where is the best spot to play my second shot from? Is there a good enough reward to going for it? CAN I pull it off if I do go for it? Do I feel good enough about my game to take on the risk? Am I a better chipper or mid-iron player? etc. etc.

I labelled it the best hole I've played in awhile because it's been awhile since I had to stand on a tee box and THINK (just as you claim to not have to do often at the courses you play). And I believe THAT is what makes a good hole.

[JMorgan]

I don't think this hole with diagonal hazards favors a stronger over a weaker player, and it certainly makes both players decide how to set up the second shot based on the decision off the tee:



No?  Si? 

457 par 4

[Mark_F]

The biggest exception for me tends to be undefined tee shots

George,

Aren't undefined tee shots the essence of ambiguity?

A tee shot is straightforward if it is clear what has to be accomplished, and you know whether that possibility is within the realm of achievement.

But factors such as an elevation change, semi-blindness, wide open spaces that may make it difficult to discern exactly where/how far a hazard extends are anything but straight forward.

The following is a quote from either Rich Goodale or Sean Arble, about Dornoch's 14th which I cut and pasted into a document but shamefully can't remember where...

"The fairway on 14 is a wide one, and if you are really wide (right) you can even tack your way up the 3rd fairway to the green! That being said, because of the design of the hole, there is really only a very narrow channel (10 yards or so) which gets you to Position A. This is down the left hand side where a long and straight shot will bound down the firm fairway and end up to the left of the finger of land which protrudes into the fairway at 290 yards or so.

Hit the drive just a bit to the right of that left hand channel and you are either blocked by the finger (which is 10 feet high) or (even worse) up against it with an awkward shot from an upslope in medium length rough. Hit the ball a bit further right (safe shot) and you both lose distance (as you are angling away from the straight line to the green) and are assured of a blind shot over the finger.

Pull the drive just a bit left of perfect and it will land in the rough, which is not thick but is soft. As a result, while you will probably get a decent lie there, you will only get the distance you can carry the ball, which means you will probably be 30-50 yards behind Position A."

Dornoch's 14th is a masterpiece, of course, but Rich or Sean have poetically described a driving challenge which is both straight forward and undefined.

[Adam Clayman]

Don't know if it's been mentioned already, but besides all the things David Stamm mentioned, Pin position are a major factor in making specific tee shot decisions.
 Perhaps it's only on courses with green shapes that have sections receptive to different angles, or ball flights?

[Pete_Pittock]

   The most difficult decision is the one you don't realize is being asked.
   On the example hole I don't have a prayer of a chance to carry the bunker. Playing short is my obvious choice, but the decision I should make is determining which angle best suits my game based on the pin position of the day. The green shows a number of angles and humps. Some days I should play left fairway, other days to the right.
   The sign of a great architect is the ability to obscure the need to make a decision.
   One of the most unsung holes (IMO) at Bandon is #8 at Bandon Dunes.
The golfer is drawn to the bomb-run bunker complex being the major focus and does what he must to avoid them. That is all he sees; however, the complex green complex is a much bigger hazard for your score, and you better find a good position for the second shot.

[Kalen Braley]

As it refers to this hole, I really don't see why its getting the bashing it is.  I think its an interesting hole for players of most caliber and here's why:

1)  First things first.  That carry distance of 260 is from the tips.  If you aren't a low single capper, you have no business playing from this tee in the first place.  A 260 carry is interesting for good players who can hit the ball long.  If you are playing from the mens or white tees, this carry is only 230 yards which is a lot more doable/tempting.  And from the most forward tees its only 132 yards. I think this works for just about everyone.

2)  A better angle can be had going into the green if one makes the carry.  If you choose to go left, now you must negotiate the bunker for the approach into the green.

3)  Its short enough that even if a mistake is made and one finds the native or the bunkers, even the mid cappers still have a reasonable chance for salvaging a par.

4)  It does cause one to pause to consider which route to take which is always a good thing to get people thinking on the course instead of just stepping up to the tee and bombing away.


Is it a world class hole in the class of a Riviera #10?  I doubt anyone here would claim that.

Is it a really good and interesting hole that gives the golfer different risk/reward options to think about and still remain playable for high cappers? I say yes...

[Jason Topp]

I believe that decisions off the tee are a factor that distinguishes very good from most courses being built today.  

To my mind, too many recent courses have wide fairways without also making the tee shot interesting.  I do not think that a decision needs to be the attribute that makes the tee shot interesting but it is one of the best was to create interest.

Some examples of difficult decisions off the tee:

Old Course - safe tee shot left or better angle right

Any fairway bunker where a person would otherwise place his tee shot. (principal's nose)

Bunker on inside corner of dogleg with green opening to inside. (11 or 12 at N Berwick)

"Put and take" holes where on chooses between being closer to the green v. a better angle (can't think of a famous example)

Well done bottle holes

Par 5 at Sand Hills where hugging left side gives an extra 75 yards of roll. (also 10 at Augusta).

[Pete_Pittock]

Kalen,
    Right now my carry distance is about 190, which means that carrying the bunker is impossible for me from the last three tee boxes and debatable from the second set of tees from the front. My strategy decisions are apparently much different than yours.
    This hole is much more difficult for the bogey golfer than the scratch golfer.
If the architect had loosened up the fairway bunkering, leaving a small gap that player could aim for,  it may be much more appealing.

[Kalen Braley]

Pete,

Understood you don't have a lot of carry distance, and in this case going left appears to be the play for you.  But even going left and staying short or left of the bunker still only leaves a short iron in.  So while a longer player may carry the bunker and hit wedge in, you've still got a 9 or 8 iron in your hands right?   

I'd say this is a much easier hole for a bogey golfer to score on than a 400 yard straight away hole.

[JSPayne]

Pete, I think you almost proved one of my points exactly. I would be interested to know what handicap golfer you are, but assuming you are indeed a bogey golfer, the "red/orange" tees would be the right set for you (course yardages from the tips forward: 7800, 7300, 6800, 6200, 5400) at 6200 yards. Obviously that's my opinion, but as Kalen points out as well, if you are honest to your own skill and play from the right set of tees, that "risky" carry should be right at a distance that makes you uncomfortable, but intrigued. Then you approach my second point.....do you feel good enough on that day to make the shot?

"Do ya feel lucky punk? Well.......do ya?" 

I still like this design.....despite all the posts to the contrary.

[Pete_Pittock]

JSP
My Hdcp is USGA11+, course 13 so I fit in the in-between category. The bogey golfer I think is rated at 175 yds, which may include roll. I will respond to your question on the original thread for that hole. 'best hole I played in a while'.

[Rich Goodale]

The biggest exception for me tends to be undefined tee shots

George,

Aren't undefined tee shots the essence of ambiguity?

A tee shot is straightforward if it is clear what has to be accomplished, and you know whether that possibility is within the realm of achievement.

But factors such as an elevation change, semi-blindness, wide open spaces that may make it difficult to discern exactly where/how far a hazard extends are anything but straight forward.

The following is a quote from either Rich Goodale or Sean Arble, about Dornoch's 14th which I cut and pasted into a document but shamefully can't remember where...

"The fairway on 14 is a wide one, and if you are really wide (right) you can even tack your way up the 3rd fairway to the green! That being said, because of the design of the hole, there is really only a very narrow channel (10 yards or so) which gets you to Position A. This is down the left hand side where a long and straight shot will bound down the firm fairway and end up to the left of the finger of land which protrudes into the fairway at 290 yards or so.

Hit the drive just a bit to the right of that left hand channel and you are either blocked by the finger (which is 10 feet high) or (even worse) up against it with an awkward shot from an upslope in medium length rough. Hit the ball a bit further right (safe shot) and you both lose distance (as you are angling away from the straight line to the green) and are assured of a blind shot over the finger.

Pull the drive just a bit left of perfect and it will land in the rough, which is not thick but is soft. As a result, while you will probably get a decent lie there, you will only get the distance you can carry the ball, which means you will probably be 30-50 yards behind Position A."

Dornoch's 14th is a masterpiece, of course, but Rich or Sean have poetically described a driving challenge which is both straight forward and undefined.

Just noticed this Mark.  It was I.  Thanks for the kudos.

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

George:

Thank you for quoting me correctly.

Low-handicap players get all jazzed about "decisions" involving a big carry off the tee, because THEY KNOW THEY CAN MAKE THE CARRY.  It's still a risk, yes, but only if they hit a poor tee shot.  [Most alternate-fairway holes are set up so that the long-carry tee shot gets the easy angle to the green, a design theory which hammers the short hitter over the head.]

Likewise, if you understand the relationship between hole location and best approach angle on a course like Ballyneal, then making the correct decision isn't so hard.

Much better types of decisions are the ones involving a risk you CAN'T carry ... i.e. Rich's description of the 14th at Dornoch, or playing down the left edge of the fifth hole at Sunningdale to get a better angle into the green, knowing you are flirting with the heather and trees on the left.

The 16th at St. Andrews is another great one.  Nobody is confident to play down the fence on the right, but if you drive too far down the left, you also get a bad angle to the best hole locations.  So do you dare play close to the central bunkers?

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