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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2008, 12:19:04 PM »
Sean, Rick - yes, but I think what CB might have meant was something more like:

"A great golf course takes your breath away on first encounter, but (if it's one of MY courses especially) will only reveal its nuance and secrets over years of continued play."
...

Peter,

Good revelation, and in my opinion it is even tougher to pull off a great course that doesn't wow you initially, but reveals it's greatness through it's nuances over the ages.

Joe

Joe essentially nailed the #1 course in the world, TOC. Isn't what he wrote exactly Bobby Jones reaction to it, not to mention every other American pro of note that went there the first time without knowing anything about it.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2008, 12:25:17 PM »
Mark, Sean - good posts there. Yes, I agree with Joe that the courses that don't immediately wow but instead are revealed as great over time are extra special.  I'm still not sure, Mark, if that's what CB might've meant; he did appreciate the "quiet" links courses, but he sure seems to me to have BUILT the wow courses, or tried to. Also interesting in the Mark-Sean discussion is that, from the pictures you post Sean of lesser-known British courses, you seem to know all about appreciating subtle/hidden qualities over time....you just seem to me to "get it" quicker than most.

Peter

wsmorrison

Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2008, 12:36:47 PM »
The designs of CB Macdonald seem to me to be pretty obvious in how they should be played, certainly after one or two instances even in the case of the Alps hole at NGLA.  I think the learning curves tend to be pretty short even with his original designs.  The concept of template holes is all about familiarity and predictability, that is one of the problems I have with them even recognizing that most are conceptual remakes and there are different nuances among them.

I don't see how CBM could have been referring so much about his courses and designs when he made that statement.  Where was he at the time, Merion?

Mike_Cirba

Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2008, 12:45:18 PM »
Wayne,

Maybe that will get a reaction.

I said he was smoking crack and didn't hear a peep in response.   ::) ;)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2008, 12:54:11 PM »
Just had to drop in a troll post, huh?

An implication of CBM's comment is that the best holes have no dominant strategy for how to play them -- there's no one best way but rather the way varies according to the conditions, the conditions of one's game that day, and the state of the match.

Lack of a dominant strategy, as that other Mac wrote, contributes to the lasting appeal of a hole -- and to an inscrutability that should pardon a hole from immediate judgment.

I don't know NLGA, all I know is Yale.  But Yale has plenty of holes where play will vary.

Three examples for a start:
4: how much to challenge the pond off the tee.

14: slingshot it off the left chute, blast it over the trees right, or lay back center.

18: after playing the hole hundreds of times, still have yet to figure out which way to go on the second shot -- usually go left, but after playing the hole usually curse not going down the right.  Of course, I'm not saying it's a great hole... :P

And, besides, everyone knows Merion is, if not a product of Mac's hidden hand, pure homage to the Old Master.  That template holes lurk underneath that verdant canvas.  One cannot criticize CBM without damning Merion.  One cannot hold up Merion without bowing at the altar of the founder of American golfing religion, The Very Golfing Reverend Charlie Mac.

Yes yes!!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2008, 01:02:19 PM »
Mark, Sean - good posts there. Yes, I agree with Joe that the courses that don't immediately wow but instead are revealed as great over time are extra special.  I'm still not sure, Mark, if that's what CB might've meant; he did appreciate the "quiet" links courses, but he sure seems to me to have BUILT the wow courses, or tried to. Also interesting in the Mark-Sean discussion is that, from the pictures you post Sean of lesser-known British courses, you seem to know all about appreciating subtle/hidden qualities over time....you just seem to me to "get it" quicker than most.

Peter
Mark

I could be wrong, but I think it is human nature to want to draw conclusions and/or have an opinion.  There is all the difference in the world between expressing that opinion or not. 

Peter

I am not sure its a question of getting it.  I think its a matter of I have seen enough courses which are less obvious in their nature, but still packed with interest to know what archies do to create interest.  It helps that I tend to really like this style of course precisely because it isn't screaming "look at me".  I find a lot of the "look at me" stuff to be unnecessary.  There is a real beauty to visual economy. 

Wayne believes template holes are less desireable, but to a large extent, that is what golf is all about in terms of architecture either in name or not.  There are only so many golf holes on paper and I would wager that many on this site have seen practically every type of hole imaginable.  I know archies don't like to hear this type of talk, but I would like to see a course these days which doesn't heavily rely on what came before it.  Some archies do a better job of hiding this fact by using the land expertly and/or using a naturalistic style.  Afterall, the land is the only unique aspect of any course. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: C.B. Macdonald quote
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2008, 01:39:21 PM »
A golf hole, humanly speaking, is like life, in as much as one cannot judge justly of any person’s
character the first time one meets him. Sometimes it takes years to discover and appreciate hidden qualities which only time discloses, and he usually discloses them on the links. --
C.B. Macdonald

Just saw this in a GCSAA online newsletter. I have always maintained that rating courses after one playing does courses an injustice. I guess C.B. agrees.

Wan not CBM a student of TOC. And, could this not simply be an expression of what he learned from TOC?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mike_Cirba

Re: C.B. Macdonald quote New
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2008, 02:52:28 PM »

And, besides, everyone knows Merion is, if not a product of Mac's hidden hand, pure homage to the Old Master.  That template holes lurk underneath that verdant canvas.  One cannot criticize CBM without damning Merion.  One cannot hold up Merion without bowing at the altar of the founder of American golfing religion, The Very Golfing Reverend Charlie Mac.


Ah yes, the crack pipe has indeed been passed to a new generation of Americans.  ;D

Just teasing, Mark...just teasing.  ;)
« Last Edit: February 26, 2008, 03:08:06 PM by MPCirba »

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