Another Ranking...Texas Golf 2008

[Andy Troeger]

Any thoughts on Painted Dunes or Butterfield Trail? Is BT too new to make this list with not getting enough of the panel out to El Paso? Should they be on the list?

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Thanks Lou for your thoughts RE: Shady Oaks and Northwood. 

As for Champions...I believe the number of scratch or better players we have is hovering right around 50 and there are another 300 or so in single digits.  Everything at Champions revolves around competitive play.

[David Stamm]

Anyway, when you refer to Midland CC are your referring to the orignal Plummer course or their new acuquistion of the Killian and Nugent (Brauer drawn plans!) former Mission Dorado next door?  I have played both, and like Champions, they suffer from flat land syndrome.

Jeff, don't you mean Odessa CC? The Links at Mission Dorado was bought by Odessa CC and it then became a 36 hole facility. The Midland CC I was referring to earlier was the actual Midland CC in Midland by Ralph Plummer. BTW, the course you drew plans for was the very first course I ever played. So my wife has you to blame, bubba! I really enjoy the course very time I go out there. BTW, I looked through their club records the last time I was there and did not know that Bredemus had done the original Odessa CC 18 there.

[mike_beene]

Kyle, I will disagree slightly with Lou. I like Shady a lot ,and certainly more than Colonial. The property is a little severe on the front and at one time they had to overseed the 6th fairway in the winter to keep balls from rolling off. There are several broad shouldered elevated greens that scream RTJ. I like the back to back 5s. Northwood is good also(Kalen had its aerial up a while back),but the 18th and the road through the middle both are less than ideal.I think it suffers a little bit of the "I cant believe they had an open here disease."

[Lou_Duran]

Mike,

I know several people who think highly of Shady Oaks.  The greens, in my opinion, are the highlight of the course.  The back nine par 5s are the ones I don't have a high regard for.  Typically they are not reachable in two (the creek crossing the fairway on the second one often creates a lay-up from the tee) followed by a non-descript second and a fairly easy third.   An architect actually informally presented a concept of reversing the tees and greens of the two par fives and re-siting the par 3 16th (a good par 3 with the dreadfull maintance facility as the background).  The flow of the course in that section would not have been as good, but I think it wouold have made for better golf.  The concept did not even make it to the formal decision makers as the club is keen to keep the bones of the course largely unchanged.

While I like Mira Vista quite a bit better, if I end up in Fort Worth when we come back to Texas, I will consider Shady Oaks as a possible club to join.  With the small membership and the par 3 course, it is a great place to play and practice.

Andy,

I don't know anything about Butterfield, but I would not go out of my way to play Painted Dunes.  When I was there in 2006, the course was deteriorating rapidly to the point where the desert was actually reclaiming part of the roughs and fairways.  The bunkes were in awful condition.  The design is good, particularly for an inexpensive muni.

I think Trevino was involved years ago in a nearby 36-hole project, Santa Ana or Teresa or something like that, which did not do well financialy.  An acquaintance was a member there and he said the courses were pretty good.  Apparently there is also a decent course on the other side of the border.  Personally,  I would not visit El Paso unless I had business there, though I am sure that the locals are outstanding and the area has numerous redeeming values.   It is one drab, windy, dusty place.   

[Jeff Spittel]

I noticed some love for Deerwood on the earlier posts. The routing is good and there are some great holes, but conditioning may be an issue for raters. They are currently redesigning the greenside bunkers, but are curiously leaving the fairway bunkers unchanged.

The end result will be a pretty inconsistent look and varied playability. I've been disappointed enough to consider dropping my membership for another club. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

I too look forward to Colonial's renovation.  I hope that they are finally able to grow bent year-round on those small, highly trafficked greens.  It will be interesting to see how they get the additional 100 yards.  It has been renovated numerous times and the last time I played there it seemed like they were already to the fence lines.  The course probably provides all the challenge the superintendent and his very large staff can handle.

Lou,
  A big part of this renovation is going to be about fixing some of the inconsistencies of the golf course; fixing some of the changes made in the 60, and 70’s which will result in a course with a must better flow and without  noticing where changes were made.  The tees will be stretched a bit on #3, #5, #6, #7, #11, #12, #13, #14 and #18. It will be very excited here and I know the Mr. Foster’s work will be outstanding and very well accepted when finished. Everything will have a fresh new look/feel to it. 
  As for the bentgrasss, I have not been here for a summer of “fun” but many of the things that I learned on Hilton Head are different here and I think that they are very practical. We use a lot of sand, topdressing every Monday and hollow tine aerify with small tines WHENEVER needed.  We handwater only to only apply water to hot spots and to not encourage a disease outbreak. 4-6 workers will check greens all day long during the summer months.  Lastly, we have 80+ fans that go up after the tournament to keep the air moving, especially because we sit down in the Trinity River Valley. I’m not saying it’s easy, but I think that we give ourselves all the chances possible.  I look forward to learning. I think that my new boss is VERY good at growing bentgrass and he, without question, gets the meaning of “fast and firm.”

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[jeffwarne]

I too look forward to Colonial's renovation.  I hope that they are finally able to grow bent year-round on those small, highly trafficked greens.  It will be interesting to see how they get the additional 100 yards.  It has been renovated numerous times and the last time I played there it seemed like they were already to the fence lines.  The course probably provides all the challenge the superintendent and his very large staff can handle.

Lou,
  A big part of this renovation is going to be about fixing some of the inconsistencies of the golf course; fixing some of the changes made in the 60, and 70’s which will result in a course with a must better flow and without  noticing where changes were made.  The tees will be stretched a bit on #3, #5, #6, #7, #11, #12, #13, #14 and #18. It will be very excited here and I know the Mr. Foster’s work will be outstanding and very well accepted when finished. Everything will have a fresh new look/feel to it. 
  As for the bentgrasss, I have not been here for a summer of “fun” but many of the things that I learned on Hilton Head are different here and I think that they are very practical. We use a lot of sand, topdressing every Monday and hollow tine aerify with small tines WHENEVER needed.  We handwater only to only apply water to hot spots and to not encourage a disease outbreak. 4-6 workers will check greens all day long during the summer months.  Lastly, we have 80+ fans that go up after the tournament to keep the air moving, especially because we sit down in the Trinity River Valley. I’m not saying it’s easy, but I think that we give ourselves all the chances possible.  I look forward to learning. I think that my new boss is VERY good at growing bentgrass and he, without question, gets the meaning of “fast and firm.”

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,
Any reason not to go to one of the dwarf bermudas on the greens?
Sounds like a lot of money and effort to keep bent grass in an area where a LOT of golf is played in the summer.
Regards,
Jeff

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jeff,
  Colonial has ALWAYS had bentgrass, since the course opened in the 30's. There really arent too many private clubs around here that do and all the high end privates (Dallas National, Vaquero, Shady Oaks, Northwood, Preston Trails to name a few) all have bentgrass. It is alot of work, but at the end of the day, dwarf bermudas are VERY maintenance intensive also. I'd rather deal with bentgrass cause when its right, NO BERMUDA will touch it.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Matt_Ward]

Lou D said, "There are several courses in the Top 100 that I have to scratch my head on.  One has to consider how a course plays under competition in evaluating its architecture.  It is more than just resistance to scoring, but also the shots required under the heat in tournament conditions.  Perhaps you should give a try again on your next trip to Houston, or maybe get yourself and a partner an invitation to the Champions Cup."

Lou -- I try to keep an open mind regarding Champions but I was told the same story after my first visit to the club years and years ago. I returned for an encore visit and for the life of me I can't fathom what is there.

The issue is not the membership -- the pedigree of the top players who play there or the founding spirit from Demaret and Burke. That's not what I am speaking about.

If one were to analyze the totality of the two courses and given all the hoopla / fanfare tied to them -- I don't see how they even remotely sniff a top 100 placement in the USA. You outlined there are a few other courses in the top 100 placement that leave you wondering. I have no doubt about that and likely some of the same ones would be mentioned by us both. However, just because there are other dogs in the top 100 doesn't mean to say that Champions gets a pass in terms of the architectural elements (lack thereof) that are there.

As to your other comments ... "As to my veracity, name five clubs in the U.S. with two quality tournament courses, an excellent practice area, and a huge number of low single-digit handicapers.  Tiger can probably speak better to it than I can, but according to Mr. Burke, you better come ready to play when you step on the grounds.  While they take money from pigeons, not much respect is given them."

I can name a few that meet your statement ...

Winged Foot
Baltusrol
Olympic
Oakland Hills
Medinah
Bandon Dunes
Firestone

I don't know how to define / number when you say, "huge number of low single-digit handicappers." The courses I named are more than capable in doing what you outlined.

Lou, you also said, "Dallas National 9 to 1, but I just like DN that much (though it may not be my favorite Fazio course in the state)." You proved my point -- if the spread between Dallas National and Champions is that far apart it itemizes clearly for me just how good one course is when compared to other other.   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Lou I am glad to see someone whom I respect sees Boot in a positive way. I do disagree with you on politics, but so what, I have complete respect for your architecture views. I must confess the pictures, diagrams and layouts I saw would have precluded your observations on Boot. As we all know Jim Lipe does great work and from my perspective is the star of jack's shop. The routing looked odd to me. Notwithstanding I am still hard pressed to think top 10 or even close to that with all the quality and depth in the state. I will make it my business to go see it this spring.

Matt, I do not think anyone on here thinks I need to see anymore golf courses to have a fair view of the golf universe. Yes there is a great world waiting to be seen but my sampling is good to date. I did not say Champions is top 100. I do think it is on the edge, ie maybe in maybe just out, depending on the criteria used. I play there often including again this weekend. I know the course as well as anyone on this site. Well Nuzzo and a few lifelong Houston guys may know it a little better but not much. I tend to compare it to Spyglass, Firestone and other big brawny courses of that period. I think it reflects the Texas character to a T. There is a place for that unique quality in golf architecture. A course should reflect the land but when the character and fiber of the people who live there screams out at you then another great piece of the puzzle is in place. Ralph Plummer did that. I think Maxwell found that piece and it shows at Colonial as well.
I do find your bias against this part of the world offensive and have no problem saying so. The fact you have not trashed every course in the southern US does not make your thought processes not biased. Each year you trash our greens and courses. I love the new strains of burmuda and when dormant make one of the best putting surfaces I play each year. I find many on here like the quarry a great deal. I am not one of them. It is a fun course but just another pretty good daily fee to me.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

With all due respect - I have said a number of time complimentary items relating to a number of courses throughout Texas and the southern areas of the USA. I just don't fawn over each and every layout that's there -- or anywhere else for that matter (and that includes many overrated layouts in my neck of the woods). I simply call them as I see them and go from there.

So please let's stop repeating falsehoods over and over again. If you don't like my specific opinions that's one thing -- if you start to broad brush me to comments I have not made then you need to really examine your own motives.

I have been one of the few (non Texans) living in the Northeast who has saluted a number of the more recent designs that have come forward. Do yourself a favor and take off the ear-muffs because I have said specific items relating to specific courses of quality. I have also been one of the very few who has stated the future for Texas golf does look good because of land availability and because the bar for quality golf is rising rapidly in many locations.

I guess, in your mind, when I don't favor dead flat repetitive designs with formulaic presentations time after time that mandates the tag "bias" in your mind. Really?

The botton line is that Champions doesn't float my boat. When you say the course is "on the edge" I have to question your judgement with all due respect. If you see the course being that close to being included in such an elite company then I stand by what I said -- you need to play a few more courses to see what real quality is all about. I don't see that "style" as deserving special accolades. When you say there's a "place" for that "unique quality in golf architecture" I have to wonder what "place" are you speaking about? Ditto the "utter quality" you are attributing to the design?

I am not a fan of that style of golf -- ditto the others you mentioned -- the "brawny layouts" of Spyglass Hill and Firestone / South, to name just two. While I enjoy the opening holes at Spyglass I find much of the rest of the course to be far less in terms of overall diffentiation and quality. Neither of which would make my personal top 100.

On the subject of The Quarry all I said was that I liked the course for what it offered and generally the work of Keith Foster is done with some serious thought in mind. I'm not elevating the layout to sainthood though.

Since you play Champions quite frequently I'd be curious to see your own top 10-15 courses in Texas. The ones you believe are the best in the Lone Star State. I learn from others so seeing your recommendations would be helpful if you care to share.

Since I get to the state fairly often it helps to know if there are any underrated courses that would be worth making a special sidetrip to visit and play.

[Lou_Duran]

Bent greens is in Colonial's DNA.  Mira Vista CC, some 10 miles south of Colonial, converted from bent to a bermuda hybrid, Tiff Eagle, I think, and the change made the course a few strokes more difficult.  Mira Vista's greens are larger, in more open land, yet they got tired of fighting the heat.  I think that they're satisfied with the conversion results.

Anthony may be able to speak to this, but I think Colonial's maintenance budget is among the highest in TX.  I've seen as many as couple of dozen laborers at a time laying out sod on the course.  If anyone can grow bent on a river bottom with huge oak and pecan trees it is at Colonial.  No doubt that the education an aspiring superintendent gains while working there is invaluable.

Tiger,

Unless you require Doak-like greens to merit a high rating, I suspect that you will like Boot Ranch.  As I said, the routing is not the greatest, but the architects came up with a bunch of very good holes.  Ironically, the only one I didn't care for, a very short straight-away par 4 on the back, is reportedly Sutton's favorite.  Go figure!  I understand that the course hosted a state competition in 2007 in which a number of News panelists participated.  Apparently, they were highly impressed.  BTW, Fredericksburg, some three miles from the course, is very quaint and a pretty hot tourist stop.

Matt,

I love Cypress Point.  If given the choice of playing a total of 10 rounds in any combination at CPC and Winged Foot-West, I would pick all 10 rounds at CPC.  That doesn't make WF-W an unworthy course out of the top 100.

To the best of my knowledge, not a single one of the multi-course clubs you mention would hold a candle to Champions in competition, with the larger the # of participants the greater the advantage.  A criteria that might be relevant in evaluating gca is whether it enhances and promotes the playing of the game at higher levels, i.e. does the course and its architecture make its players better.

I went from being a beginner to a mid-single digit handicapper in two to three years because I had the Scarlet course at Ohio State as my training ground.   I think Doak dissed the course, giving it a 4 or a 5 in the Confidential Guide.  I have zero doubt in my mind that had I been a student at Ohio University as opposed to Ohio State, I would never have been much of a player or developed a particularly keen interest in golf course architecture.  But, to each his own.     
     

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

In fairness -- Champions would not hold a candle to the multi-layouts I mentioned based on pure architectural pedigree. Each of the courses I mentioned, "enhances and promotes the playing of the game at higher levels, i.e. does the course and its architecture make its players better," to use your words.

In regards to your testimonial / re: Cypress Point v Winged Foot / West let's be a bit more forthcoming shall we. Dallas National is not at the level of either CP ow WFW - but DN is still light years beyond anything at Champions (you said yourself the amt of rounds between the two for you would be no less than 9-1 in favor of DN). If I had 100 rounds to play I'd be at WFW with every one of them and leave Champions (any 18) on the bench.

Candidly, besides the fact that low handicap types like Champions doesn't demonstrate for me that the course(s) themselves have architectural elements of the highest order. I salute Plummer in working with what he had and not juicing up the place with all sorts of additions that would have been forced upon the site. Often times low handicap types prefer courses devoid of anything that smacks of controversy or has the inclusion of quirk or other such features within their design. Having numerous holes that are dead flat - fairly straight with formulaic bunkering patterns and mega-sized greens doesn't demonstrate anything that sings loudly of architectural uniqueness to me. If it floats other folks boat so be it.

Lou, congrats on your development as a player at OSU's Scarlet Course. I've played the layout there a few times and like it. I'd be curious to know what rating number you would give the course in Columbus as opposed to what Doak gave? I can name plenty of courses in my neck of the woods that are very demanding in a number of ways but are lacking in overall architectural elements beyond the fact that they are good in resisting scoring.

I'd be very much interested in how you would rate the Scarlet layout to any of the 18's at Champions?

[Bill_McBride]

Every year I go spend a few days with friends at Barton Creek.  I enjoy playing the Crenshaw Cliffside course there much more than the two Fazio courses and the Palmer course that's 15 miles away.  All three of those are rated way above the Crenshaw course that has huge greens that sprawl naturally across the slopes, several falling away front to back.  The Fazio courses are very manufactured and the Palmer course is nothing special at all.

Dear Abby, is it just me?

Bill / Lou;
Call me crazy, but add me to your list of folks who prefer the Crenshaw course over the Fazios. Both Fazio courses are 'nice', but I find the Crenshaw to be much more appealing.

Glad to see I'm not the only one! 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, I do not need to see anything to know what quality is.  I sure do not need you to continue to act like you have some superior knowledge to anyone and I mean anyone on here about golf design. So please just stop spewing that tripe now. I think you are fortunate to be from a state with so many great courses and designs. However many of us are very proud of what our respective areas have architecturally and the architects who made that history with their lives work. I am one of those men. 

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

Let's just leave at that- we disagree about the architectural merits of Cypress Creek.  Given the many choices in the Houston market, I think it speaks loudly to the quality of the course that so many good golfers pay a substantial amount of money to call it home.

Regarding Scarlet, a course I've played hundreds of times before the major renovation a couple of years ago but not once since, I believe the only thing that kept it from being in the top 100 was its conditioning and set-up.  I think that to the gca aficionados it might have been disappointing because it was more of a large, modern course than what would normally be expected from MacKenzie.

In my opinion, Doak's low rating is due in good part to these preconceived expectations not being met.  As I recall, he had not played the course or even seen the whole thing when he rendered judgement.

As it was when I played Scarlet last, some 10 years ago, I would rate the course on the Golfweek scale at 6.0 - 6.5.  If it was maintained at the level of. say, Scioto or The Golf Club, I would give it a 7.  With a bundering scheme similar to that in MacKenzie's course rendering (displayed in the clubhouse) and considerable tree removal, I would give it another half point.  When the greens were firm (often) and semi-fast (seldom, typically a bit shaggy and slow) I thought the course was near perflectly balanced.  The routing, in my opinion, was outstanding.

A combination of bureaucratic mismangement (the athletic department ran the administration of the place totally separate from course maintenance which came under the purview of  the university's maintenance department) and extremely heavy use made playing there less enjoyable.  Coupled with a militaristic style in the pro shop and starter's shack, it was not a welcoming place.  How much all this plays in people's perception of the course, I don't really know.  As you are aware of, it is extremely difficult to isolate the factors pertaining strictly to golf architecture when rating a course.

[mike_beene]

Is Champions flat around the greens?Are the greens on Cyprus elevated? The flattest good course I can think of is Royal Oaks in Dallas,which is even flatter than Colonial. How does Royal Oaks play in comparison to Champions Cyprus Creek?

[Jason McNamara]

Given the many choices in the Houston market, I think it speaks loudly to the quality of the course that so many good golfers pay a substantial amount of money to call it home.

The other part of that equation is that Champions is (far) cheaper than most if not all the other options.  Initiation fees at Carlton Woods, Shadow Hawk, River Oaks, Houston CC, and Lakeside are 2 - 3 - 4 times as much.  (Don't know about Lochinvar or the older Woodlands group.)   It probably wasn't that long ago that Champions was 4 figures to get in, but others here would know more about that than I.  Anyway, a second (or third) Houston membership at Champions is not a huge outlay for someone at one of those other clubs, especially since I believe Champions pricing is still mostly, um, a la carte.  (Do they still charge for range balls?)

Matt, I do not need to see anything to know what quality is.  I sure do not need you to continue to act like you have some superior knowledge to anyone and I mean anyone on here about golf design. So please just stop spewing that tripe now.

Uh, so what is your top 10-15 for Texas?

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

People may spend their time at any number of courses for any number of reasons. No doubt the founders have instilled a certain aura tied to their efforts there and the better players feel a real tie to that type of thinking. More power to them.

Lou, just because good players call any course "home" doesn't automatically convey some special meaning that superior architecture is also present. One thing doesn't have a bonafide connection to the other.

Lou, in regards to Scarlet -- you have plenty of "what ifs" in your analysis. I can apply such a "what if" scenarios to a whole host of courses I've played around the USA. The great preponderance of them will likely never move off the dime to start anything of consequence to real change.

I enjoyed Scarlet and if the changes you speak about were able to be introduced the course would substanially rise. Would it move into the top 10 in Ohio? Candidly, I'd say no because the bar for greatness in the Buckeye State is very high. But it's highly possible that major changes could very well do what you have suggested.

I do agree with you final statement, "As you are aware of, it is extremely difficult to isolate the factors pertaining strictly to golf architecture when rating a course." Yes, it may be very difficult to do such a thing but clearly the architecture needs to be the primary emphasis point. I can remember many rounds at Bethpage Black and the folks there from years ago were utterly clueless on the masterpiece of a layout they were operating.

But keep this in mind -- while it's helpful to suggest "what might be possible" the very nature of ratings and course assessments must be grounded in a "what it is" reality.

Tiger:

I guess I need to say this again because your hearing must be lacking. I only stated my opinion on the courses I have played in Texas and elsewhere. You are the guy who blasted me for having some sort of negative vibe to all elements tied to Texas and other locations in the southern area of the USA.

Guess what buckeroo -- that's wrongo -- big time on your part.

I simply stated that if you see Cypress Creek as being even remotely close to being a top 100 course in the USA then by all means you need to see and play a good number of other courses that I believe are a good ways beyond what's there.

You highlighted the architecture of the course as being "unique" and that the muscular nature of the course needs to be saluted in some form or another. I don't doubt Plummer did a very good job given the limitations the site provides. However, it's entirely another matter to equate what was done there as being something akin to architectural greatness worthy of national acclaim.

I've highlighted countless times a range of courses that have indeed changed the landscape in Texas and that the future could very well turn out to be much brighter because the bar for quality golf is constantly rising.

Then I get this side discussion on the nature of the players who play there (Champions). That's wonderful -- but it doesn't have an iota of connection to the real issue -- the overall architecture that's there or not there in my mind.

Another thing -- let's drop the "aw shucks I'm so proud of my state routine." I don't give courses from my neck of the woods any slack and more often than not I make it a point to highlight other courses from other areas of the country that get far less ink and fanfare. If you know anything about the posts I have made you will have seen that.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jason I think I need to play a bit more golf in the Dallas area to give a top10 to 15 that is worthy of the respect of this site. I may give a list of courses I know well enough later today if the time is there to think it out. Champions is not a Country Club, it is a golf club. The other clubs noted in Houston play to different markets. It is not an equity club either. Matt goodbye

[Mike Nuzzo]

Matt,
Champions Cypress is better than when you last saw it.
The biggest repition is 1-2 & 10-11 - 12 & 4 are also similar big par 3s - but #4 is one hell of a hole.

They (Charles Joachim) have continued to work throughout the cypress course.  Improving drainage and playability - creating more fairway interest.
The greens are strategic.

Having watched the tour championship there and watching the players at thier peek contend with some of the pitch shots was most impressive.


The Jack Rabbit course was much improved with the Fazio re-do.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

I agree its probably better now than it was.  Of course, thanks to dedicated and talented supers like Charles, most courses are.

I know that this group is not a monolith, but for all we hear here about "defending par at the green" as being a good thing, not many courses do that better than Champions, and yet Matt thrashes it.  In his defense, and reading many of his posts, he does like a bigger variety of challenge and strategies than some here.  And, he is a bigger defender of modern courses and their ability to do that than some here.

I still wonder how can I generally agree with Matt in so many ways and still chaff at what he writes?  Is it because he repeats himself louder and louder each time, almost like yelling at someone who doesn't speak english because you think it will help them understand?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike N:

So given what you just said where would you rate Cypress Creek among all TX courses you have played?

Do you agree with Golfweek that has the course at #91? Or do you agree with Digest which doesn't rate it at all?

Thanks ...

Jeff B:

Thanks for your support and kind words.

Jeff, it reminds me of all the people who used to trash William F. Buckley, Jr. when he was alive. They said he was out of touch and that his verbal assaults on those who saw things differently were too strident.

I get annoyed at people who fail to connect ALL the dots I have brought forward. People cherry-pick one or two isolated comments and then broaden the meaning without a real context. I've saluted courses -- both old and new -- from any number of different locales (often more critical of courses in my neck of the woods) and with special emphasis on a number of the more recent modern courses.

Thanks for paying attention to that aspect.

Unfortunately, what often happens is that people who post passionately about topics are quickly highlighted by a narrow bunch of people as being too much of this or too much of that.

Final thought -- Texas golf has improved dramatically since I first started going to the state in the late 70's. No doubt, as I have said over and over again, the bar for quality golf architecture is rapidly rising and there's little doubt that will mean a healthy addition of some noteworthy courses down the pike.

[Lou_Duran]

Matt,

I knew (well, not personally) Bill Buckley and you, sir, are no Bill Buckley! 

I gave you my AS IS rating on pre-Nicklaus renovation Scarlet.

Not responding for Mike Nuzzo, but I generally agree with the GW rating of Champions-Cypress Creek in the bottom of the top 100.  Rember that GW has a total of 200 top 100s.  We don't know if GD has the course in its top 200, which combines Classics and Moderns in its top 100 (for a more apples-to-apples comparison).  Also, you know that there is a huge difference between the top 10 and the bottom of the list, which gets progressively smaller as you go bellow that.

Mike Beene,

Champions-CC greens are fairly low profile, not too dissimilar to Great Southwest's before Jeff Brauer's redo, though bigger.  Except for the creek areas, the site is very flat, not too dissimilar to Royal Oaks (is Colonial really flatter?).  Champions is more open tee to green than Royal Oaks, but I think the greens are more demanding.

Mike N or Tiger,

What is the ballpark initiation fee at Champions?  My recollection from several years ago is that it was in the $25,000 to $50,000 level depending on class and timing.

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