Another Ranking...Texas Golf 2008

[Anthony_Nysse]

Bill,
  Im not going to say too much about Colonial other than it's a really soild shotmakers course. I think that golf coruse will be incredible after this summer's renovation by Keith Foster. All new bunkers, new tees, about 100 yards added, 4-6 chipping areas added behind greens, a new #13 green/angle, and movement of the #11 green, #7 will have a slight left to right dogleg and a good amount of tree removal. I really think that it will be spectacular when it's finished. There are alot of people here that have put alot of time and energy to getting it to where it is now and the "fun" begins 2 weeks after the Crown Plaza Invite.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Matt_Ward]

Jack C:

I can appreciate your perspective but I'll illuminate you on mine. I've played over 1,500 courses from across the globe and nearly all the top 100 usual candidates -- whether they be from Digest, Golf Mag or Golfweek. My bar for golf course inclusion in a top 100 to 200 list is very high because of the sheer exposure I have had in playing golf for well over 30+ years.

Champions / Cypress Creek doesn't float my boat.

Jack, the atmosphere at the club isn't a part of my course assessment -- I simply weighed in on the overall architecture -- or lack thereof as it is in this particular case.  I have no doubt that a club started by Demaret and Burke would feature a solid range of players and persnality types. Hats off to them on that regard.

Jack, when you say, "somewhat flat," let's be a bit more forthcoming. The place is nearly dead flat and the scene from one tee to the next is rarely diversified to the point of being noticeable. Champions benefited from its club founders, some deep pocket local folks and the wherewithal to land a US Open so early in its overall development. If anyone believes Cypress Creek belongs in the top 100 in the USA then they really need to play a bit more golf to see what truly exists.

Lou:

I concur with you -- many of the most recent new additions to the Texas golf scene have indeed made major strides. I am a big fan of Dallas National as you know and for too many people on this site the very mention of the name of Tom Fazio can have them going through Linda Blair "Exorcist" type convulsions.

The Northeast, as you correctly surmised, benefited in having the destination immediately available when they crossed the pond and to have some unique land terrain sites that helped spur them on creatively with their efforts.

Lou, I can only hope the price structure will remain. The past record in other spots is not promising but given the contraction of the overall golf industry the price element may need to be retained in order to draw more people.

The key for Texas is that the state does have plenty of land -- much of it is nondescript but there are clear pockets where more can be done.

Gents:

The issue I have with Champions is not the people there -- that's not my point / focus at all. I just don't see the architectural merits of the course. It's long, relatively dead flat and with greens that could easily accomodate a double's match at Wimbledon and then some. Yes, there are a few par-3's of note -- but candidly not one of them falls for me in the "I must play there again" category.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Champions, while perhaps not top 100 material, was a pleasant surprise for me when I played it. I had heard so much about the huge greens, etc. that I felt I wouldn't like it, but I did.  Maybe its expectations being exceeded vs. yours being expectations (must be top 100) not being met, but its a good course and a great club.

[McCloskey]

Has anyone played the 3rd ranked Boot Ranch course and give us a review of the course.  The course hasn't received much publicity to be ranked that high among so many new high profile courses.   Is this Sutton's first solo design?

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I didn't say Cypress Creek / Champions is not a "good course" -- I simply said, that given my exposure to a broad range of courses -- it would not sniff the top 300-400 courses I would list ahead of it. The issue is also not about whether the place is a "great club." The issue being discussed deals with the redundancy of the architecture -- if one were to call it that.

If you see it as being within your personal top 100 so be it.

Frankly, I don't see playing a near replica version of the same hole time after time after time as being noteworthy. You also have greens that are so big for the sake of being big -- sort of like Texas itself.

The thing about Texas golf is that far too often the folks most familiar with what the state offers need to really do some personal homework with what other states have and are doing. Texas golf has improved dramatically and I have said, as Lou Duran correctly included, that statement many times. But improvements doesn't automatically mean the state is already there and can compete now with the top tier states in the USA.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Don't see where you inferred any of your comments from what I wrote.  The only thing remotely true is that I like the course better than you do.  I think it would make my top 300 courses, for sure.  That is, if I was that damn worried about where every course I played ranked, as opposed to just enjoying the day!

I am well aware, as is Lou, that Texas is deficient in pure numbers of Golden Age courses.  We are trying to catch up in the platinum age, though.

Houston does have a topography problem, for sure.  As to the greens, I think there is more contour variety than you might think.  I loved them, in contrast to say, the JN flatter greens at Lochinvar.

One of the beauties of large greens with lots of contours is that while the greens might be similar, your putts certainly aren't, because your distance, position from the pin, and break always vary.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

Let's re-wind the tape shall we.

You stated Cypress Creek was a "good course and a great club." I didn't say it wasn't. What I did say was that the overall archictecture is clearly lacking and very much repeated time after time after time. When you stated the course was a "pleasant surprise" to you I can't comment on what your thoughts / feelings were prior to your first exposure to it.

I answered that the aspect of a "great club" has nothing to do with the architectural aspects being reviewed on this site. I know of many clubs that are great places to socialize and meet people but the overall aspects of the actual architecture itself are quite limited.

Jeff, try to realize as Lou mentioned in his most recent post, I have highlighted the unique courses that have come forward from Texas in the last several years or so. I have been a bit more complimentary on what is happening there now then some who believe the state is locked in a time warp of no return.

Let me remind you -- since this thread is about course ratings (Dallas Morning News survey) the topic is fair game for discussion purposes. Whether you are "dawn worried" or not is inconsequential to me. I simply weighed in on where Cypress Creek would fall among the courses I have played. To suggest that I don't "enjoy(ing) the day" is a bit of a stretch on your part. I just don't enjoy playing courses that are redundantly boring and follow the same general script hole after hole after hole. If that floats your boat knock yourself out and enjoy them.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Frankly, I don't think you need to remind me of anything. Maybe I stretched your point, and you certainly stretched mine.  From a conglomeration of posts, these are our only really important points.

Rankings - I say top 300, you say no. No big whup, IMHO.

Topography - Both admit its flat

Greens - You say repetitive, I say size and contour provides putting variety.  Would I design a course with 18 large greens myself? No.  But, I think it works.

Did you find that you had 18 repetitive putts?

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I didn't stretch anything you said. I simply quoted what you said and responded in kind. You're the one who downplayed the ratings number I provided (fair enough) and then threw into the mixture the idea that somehow I leave out the enjoyment dimension. That's not true at all.

If anything partner -- you stretched what I said.

When you ask, "(D)id you find that you had 18 repetitive putts(?)," my short answer is no there were differences but nothing of note that made me say, "Wow, I've got to return and play here again." So many of the greens are just monster size entities -- they have little in terms of sectional distinctions. I grant the fact there are subtle breaks but whether one has a 20 footer from one side of the hole or the other really matters little there.

Clearly, architect Ralph Plummer had zero quality land to deal with. No doubt one could make the argument he was a forerunner for the minimalist design philosophy but I have to say Cypress Creek is more about less equals less for me.

Jeff, I've had the good fortune in playing Midland CC and I have to say the qualities of that course are better than what I saw at Cypress Creek. Plummer did a good job in providing for hole and shot differentiation and the ground element was not that much different in terms of overall flatness. If I had to play one or other other -- I'd head back to Midland.

[Bill Satterfield]

Bill,
  Im not going to say too much about Colonial other than it's a really soild shotmakers course. I think that golf coruse will be incredible after this summer's renovation by Keith Foster. All new bunkers, new tees, about 100 yards added, 4-6 chipping areas added behind greens, a new #13 green/angle, and movement of the #11 green, #7 will have a slight left to right dogleg and a good amount of tree removal. I really think that it will be spectacular when it's finished. There are alot of people here that have put alot of time and energy to getting it to where it is now and the "fun" begins 2 weeks after the Crown Plaza Invite.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony, I would agree that Colonial certainly requires some solid shotmaking.  I wasn't aware that Keith Foster had been hired to work on the course.  All of the enhancements you mentioned sound great.  What is the time frame for completion?  How did the club go about selecting Mr. Foster; does he live in Texas?  I've had limited exposure to his work (Coral Canyon in St. George Utah, Eaglewood in North Salt Lake Utah, and Horn Rapids in Richland Washington) but have enjoyed the designs that I've played. 

[Lou_Duran]

It is probably next to impossible to design an exceptional course on a flat-as-a-pancake site without moving tremendous amount of dirt.  The history behind Champions is that it was built on a very austere budget.  In fact, one of the main reasons Ralph Plummer was hired was because he had a strong record of building excellent courses on indifferent sites within very tight budgets.

As with many of Plummer's courses, I think that Cypress Creek takes repeated play to develop a full appreciation for what it offers.  Unfortunately, many of us make quick judgements based on one or two times around the course.

In my case, the first time the course was sopping wet due to heavy rains for several days (not uncommon to Houston) and the greens were slow and shaggy because they could not mow.  The second time followed a difficult winter, the grass was sparse, and, again, the course did not play as it was designed.

To the best of my knowledge, Cypress Creek has not been changed very much since it was built.  Yet, my low-handicap, tournament-playing acquaintances all believe that it is one of the top courses in Texas.  When the ball rolls and the bermuda rough is up a couple of inches, you can't bomb it from the tee or just aim for the middle of the greens on the approach.  As Jeff noted, the size and contouring of the greens (tame by Classical standards) when combined with grain and speed,  make for some serious challenge.   In windy conditions, not unheard of in Houston, getting the ball anywhere near the hole is very difficult.

I've played at least half of the courses on the various U.S. lists and there are some that I didn't think held up as well as Cypress Creek from a player's perspective.  CC may not be in the top 500 visually, but I think it is properly assessed in most of the lists.  As far as I know, in these difficult times in the industry, it is still holding its own.  From a player's standpoint, as a golf club and competitive venue, there probably is not more than a handful of clubs in the country in its peer group. 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Bill,
  Mr. Foster had prepared a master plan for C3 in the late 90's when the greens were renovated. I do not know exactly how the club came about choosing him, though I know that he was endored by several influential Texans. I'd have to venture and guess that his work for renovating old, classic courses-Southern Hills, Baltimore CC had a huge part of it and he's going to do a great job here.  Mr. Foster lives in Kentucky, I beleive. We will be working with TDI International also. They did work at Peachtree. Our time frame is to start 2 weeks after the Crown Plaza and have all 18 holes open by October 1st. A minumum of 9 holes will be open at all times.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

I think when the greens were re-grassed, they did change a few contours. I could be wrong.

Matt,

Just because I say I enjoyed it, doesn't mean I don't think you enjoy golf.  People ask me if I think gca when I golf or just play.  Mostly, I just play!  I get the sense from our correspondances and your writings here that most of your play is in fact to rank or write about golf courses. Not that there is anything wrong with that.   And our opinions don't really vary much.  If I went back to Houston, I would probably play any number of courses before going back there.  Because of the flat land, and the preponderance of pines, they do all tend to run together.

If I sound piqued, its because of your "Jersey" attitude about what Texans need to remember or be exposed to.  Down here, that dog don't hunt!

Anyway, when you refer to Midland CC are your referring to the orignal Plummer course or their new acuquistion of the Killian and Nugent (Brauer drawn plans!) former Mission Dorado next door?  I have played both, and like Champions, they suffer from flat land syndrome.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

You have got to be kidding. Lou must be embarrassed to read the local paper now.  It is like no one saw the courses they ranked. Whispering Pines is an incredible golf experience but no better than 15 to 20 ranking wise. Boot Ranch ??  #2 is silly. Champions Jack is not that good. Briggs Ranch is much better ie like top 10ish. Deerwood should be much higher, for like Crown Colony, they are solid courses which overcome housing with good routing and wonderful holes. The writer needs to have his whisky quota reduced until he puts a bit more effort into his work.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt many of us would be happier if you stick to New Mexico and stay out of the south including Texas. I am glad you get some road trips each year to wander around the west proclaiming the virtues of golf in the wide open spaces. I am not happy with this list but there are alot of very good courses in the state including Champions Cypress Creek. This never ending bias you have gets very old.

[McCloskey]

Tiger

I couldn't tell from your post if you thought Boot Ranch was not any good or just ranked too high for your taste.

I assume you have played Boot Ranch.  Can you tell us anything about it?   Pictures maybe?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I have not played it which should make my comments suspect. I have seen the drawings and pictures. There is nothing I have heard from anyone involved in the project to indicate top anything much less the best 2 or 3 in Texas. I took down the comment about the financial problems for that has nothing to do with architecture. Hal was told by a very prominent Texas golfer to stop complaining, take his medicine and finish the course. I do not know wher eit ranks for having not played it. I will buy drinks for the table if a credible source on here who has played it puts it near the top of the heap in this increasingly golf rich state.

[McCloskey]

Tiger
Thanks.   I was just interested because I had heard that it was quite good, and that it had a really good practice area.   I am going to try to see it sometime this summer.

[CHrisB]

In what other state would the top 19 ranked courses be private? The top resort is Pine Dunes at #24 and the only public course in the top 50 is Crown Colony at #19 (which I believe was private and is now semi-private).

Speaking of Crown Colony, from 1997 until now its ranking has gone: 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3, 10, 9, 20, 11, 20. Aside from new courses opening like Carlton Woods, Dallas National, Vaquero, etc., how does this happen?

[Randy Thompson]

and crown colony was ranked number one by the Dallas morning new in the early 90īs when I moved to South America. The public must be beating it to death!!!! Some years Colonial was number one and other years crown colony if memory serves me right. Great golf course Colonial, canīt wait to see the other three that are better and the new changes at Colonial forth coming. Way to go Halimony, welcome to the design world, hope he gets a good fee for all his Xīs!
Anthony, I should be in Fort Worth for Easter, would love to tour the course with you!

[Lou_Duran]

Tiger,

We view the world so differently that my credibility is probably suspect to you.  Nevertheless, I played Boot Ranch in 2006 and had it in my TX top 10.  I think it is a wonderful course with great topography and variety.  It is rugged, expansive, natural, and very challenging from tee to green.  Hal (and Jim Lipe, I think) gives you a break on the greens, and if you're stroking the ball well and have a good caddie, the putts will go in.  It is not particularly well-routed, but nearly eveyone down there rides anyways, and some of the compromises allowed the architects to better use prominent natural featues.  As I recall, there was not a lot of dirt moved to build the course.

http://www.bootranch.com/home.html

As to the Morning News list, I am not embarrased at all.  I respect the different opinions of the many qualified panelist, even if they don't happen to match mine.  At the risk of losing my posting priviliges, I personally think that Fazio has three courses in the top 5, one which is Briggs Ranch.

The last time I played Whispering Pines it was firm, fast and tons of fun, totally different than when we played it together.  If you remember, Andy Hodson told us they were trying to change their maintenance practices to firm the course up.  They succeeded, though no doubt helped by a drought that had settled over the area for most of that year.  I had Whispering Pines in my top five. 

I agree with you that Jackrabbit is not that good (Mike Nuzzo disagrees with me completely) and I like both Deerwood and Crown Colony much more.  I like Walden nearly as much as Crown Colony, and though it is not quite as solid all the way through, at least the houses are not right on top of you.  If you could have seen Crown Colony during the early 90s before all the houses, it would be easy to understand how it has fallen from its high pedestal.

I too look forward to Colonial's renovation.  I hope that they are finally able to grow bent year-round on those small, highly trafficked greens.  It will be interesting to see how they get the additional 100 yards.  It has been renovated numerous times and the last time I played there it seemed like they were already to the fence lines.  The course probably provides all the challenge the superintendent and his very large staff can handle.

BTW, Keith Forster renovated Westwood in south Houston and did a wonderful job.  It is a course that Nuzzo recommended to me and I was very pleasantly surprised.

There has been a lot of new construction in Texas since the late 90s, much of it in the high-end market and tied to upscale housing on estate lots.  I am not aware that there is much on the drawing boards, but hopefully Wolf Point will get some notice.   

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Since this thread has the eye of so many well traveled TX golfers can anyone share their opinions of and/or their preference between Shady Oaks and Northwood?

[Matt_Ward]

Lou D said, "CC may not be in the top 500 visually, but I think it is properly assessed in most of the lists.  As far as I know, in these difficult times in the industry, it is still holding its own.  From a player's standpoint, as a golf club and competitive venue, there probably is not more than a handful of clubs in the country in its peer group."

With all due respect partner -- Cypress Creek is overrated and it doesn't deserve a top 100 spot -- on any list. I'm not suggesting it's not a good golf course but from an architectural analysis it's really boring and likely that's why good players may like it because it's devoid of anything that can remotely be dubbed controversial.

Lou, c'mon, when you say "not more than a handful of clubs in the country in its peer group" you are straining a bit on the truth meter aren't you? Cypress Creek may be grand for Houston but the USA is a much bigger market place.

One last question -- if you had 10 rounds of golf between Dallas National and Cypress Creek at Champions how would you split them up?

Many thanks ...


Jeff B:

I played the Midland CC version from 3 to 4 years ago. Whoever was responsible for it I enjoyed what it offered -- even with the dead flat land.

Jeff you said, "Just because I say I enjoyed it, doesn't mean I don't think you enjoy golf.  People ask me if I think gca when I golf or just play.  Mostly, I just play!  I get the sense from our correspondances and your writings here that most of your play is in fact to rank or write about golf courses. Not that there is anything wrong with that. "

Jeff, I enjoy playing for the sake of playing. No doubt I personally assess each course I have ever played but the joy of hitting shots and playing different holes always comes first for me.  

Jeff, in regards to the "Jersey" attitude -- do yourself a big favor in seeing past posts on Texas golf. I have been a huge advocate for people to go to the state and play the better layouts that are present. I have been the guy from the Northeast who is not locked into the stereotype that all golf in Texas is utterly forgettable. I've seen considerable progress over the ears and have mentioned this a number of time on posts on GCA and elsewhere.

In fact, I've always stated that given the vast amount of land and some of those locations are indeed unique from a topography perspective I see the possibility for even more unique courses in the years ahead and likely you will be a part of that effort.

Tiger B:

Wake up and smell up the coffee. My brother lives in the Padre Island area and I get to the state far more than many. I have only commented on the so-called top tier layouts that I have played and to refresh your foggy memory I have saluted a number of courses from the Lone Star State on more than a few occasions. See my comments on Rawls Course, Painted Dunes Desert GC, Dallas National, The Quarry, to name just a few.

Re-read what Lou Duran said about my open mind on such matters.

Just because I don't toe the line as you define and see it -- that's too bad.

Tiger, if you think Cypress Creek is a legitimate top 100 course then maybe you need to diversify your playing locations a bit more. Being the best in a given area is one thing -- being the best in the USA is quite another.

Like I said before -- I've touted a number of courses in Texas - you may need to open your eyes a bit more because you've missed such posts. I also see plenty of inferior and mediocre golf that's still hailed as being really good golf when it's really quite the opposite.

Appreciate your lecture on what I should do and not do.
 

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Matt,

Lou said...

From a player's standpoint, as a golf club and competitive venue, there probably is not more than a handful of clubs in the country in its peer group. 

I don't think that this is straining anything on the truth meter as you say.  I would be interested to read the list you could compile of more competitive clubs in the US.

[Lou_Duran]

Kyle,

Northwood by a pretty good margin.  However, Shady Oaks for a few years has been undergoing some changes (incrementally) under the guidance of local architect John Colligan, and it could catch up.  I think that they might be currently doing some substantial improvements ahead of an upcoming USGA event, maybe the Senior Am?

The course has a couple elevated greens which I don't like, an uninspiring start, a bottleneck or two, and a couple of rather boring par 5s.  According to the founder's daughter, Hogan tried to get his two cents worth in the design but was rebuffed.  While RTJ Sr. gets the credit, Ralph Plummer and a couple of other guys were heavily involved in the design.

Matt,

There are several courses in the Top 100 that I have to scratch my head on.  One has to consider how a course plays under competition in evaluating its architecture.  It is more than just resistance to scoring, but also the shots required under the heat in tournament conditions.  Perhaps you should give a try again on your next trip to Houston, or maybe get yourself and a partner an invitation to the Champions Cup.

As to my veracity, name five clubs in the U.S. with two quality tournament courses, an excellent practice area, and a huge number of low single-digit handicapers.  Tiger can probably speak better to it than I can, but according to Mr. Burke, you better come ready to play when you step on the grounds.  While they take money from pigeons, not much respect is given them.

Dallas National 9 to 1, but I just like DN that much (though it may not be my favorite Fazio course in the state).  

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