Another Ranking...Texas Golf 2008

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Lou,

The current standard initiation at Champions is around $25,000-$30,000.  It is a non equity membership with a maximum handicap requirement to join.  As Tiger mentioned it is quite different then the other high end clubs in Houston as Champions is very much a golf club.

[Matt_Ward]

Lou:

If you really believe Cypress Creek is a top 100 American layout then you must be drinking some really potent water. Let me know if there's a nearby distributor in the greater NYC metro area.

If Dallas National rates for you 9 rounds to every 1 for Cypress Creek that tells me how far apart the courses truly are. Now, I likely would not have Dallas National in my personal top 50 but it would likely grab a spot in the second fifty.

We can debate this until the cows come home but candidly, flat courses with gigantor size greens doesn't float my boat architecturally.

Lou, Digest has Cypress Creek as the 9th best course in all of Texas. If one were to really study the rest of the top courses listed per state it would be a hard stretch for me to believe that the layout would make a top 200 given the quality of the other courses from the remainder of the states.

[Jason McNamara]

The current standard initiation at Champions is around $25,000-$30,000.  It is a non equity membership with a maximum handicap requirement to join.  As Tiger mentioned it is quite different then the other high end clubs in Houston as Champions is very much a golf club.

Shadow Hawk is golf only, and in any event, the big expense in a country club is the golf component, isn't it?  (What does a high-end tennis-only club charge?)

For that matter, doesn't Champions have some social members (older, former golf members mostly) who mostly come by for Sunday brunch?

[J_ Crisham]

Jason, It is true that golf is the greatest expense but it can also be a reasonable revenue producer. The biggest loser at clubs is the dining room followed by the pool and then the tennis courts. The 3 clubs  I play at all struggle on the dining end. Fortunately 2 of the 3 are golf only. Some advantages of Champions as explained by a close friend who is one of their more prominent members is that it is nonequity,never had an assessment in 50 yrs, has great numbers to support it from a monthly cash flow standpoint. I'm not sure where you belong but if I lived in the Houston area I would add this to my liist of memberships-just a great group of guys.

[CHrisB]

Matt,

Let's just leave at that- we disagree about the architectural merits of Cypress Creek.

Translation: I respect your opinion, but disagree.

Lou:

If you really believe Cypress Creek is a top 100 American layout then you must be drinking some really potent water. Let me know if there's a nearby distributor in the greater NYC metro area.

Translation: You're an idiot.
---------------------------------------------------------

Matt,
I've been a part of this Discussion Group for 6 years now, and I have long sensed that you feel that you don't get your due respect for your architectural knowledge and opinions.

I for one do respect your knowledge and opinions, and have enjoyed several back-and-forths with you. And I respect the amount of time and effort you have put in to traveling to see a wider variety of courses than just about anyone.

But you still don't seem to realize that most of the time when people criticize you, they aren't criticizing your knowledge or opinions about architecture--they are criticizing your delivery of those opinions.

How can people respect you as a critic of GCA if you basically piss all over their opinions?

You have no chance of gaining the widespread respect you think you deserve until you start showing some respect for opinions different than yours.

No chance.

I hope you can adjust your approach because I think you have so much more to contribute than just being a part of a pissing match. Witness your Return to Black Mesa thread that was an interesting, (and for the most part) civil discussion that went pretty deep and lasted a long time (months in fact).

[J_ Crisham]

Chris,     Your calling Matt Ward on the carpet was well written and quite appropriate. He is quite offensive whether he realizes it or not. When I mentioned my views  on Champions I attempted to establish my experience,  playing a somewhat wide array of courses(50 of the top100 in US and the World)- merely to establish that I have seen some of the better architectural courses, his response was as follows: " let me illuminate you on my experience in30yrs of golf, I've played all of the top 100 and over 1500 courses around the world yadayadayada...." What a pompous ass-he obviously feels he's seen more than anyone and knows it all, not somebody who can show respect for others views.

[Norbert P]

He is quite offensive whether he realizes it or not.

 Perhaps is in high attacks bracket? Not fun.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Matt,
Of the courses I've seen on the Digest Texas list the only one I disagree with it Texas Tech.
It is much better.

[Sam Morrow]

Matt,
Of the courses I've seen on the Digest Texas list the only one I disagree with it Texas Tech.
It is much better.

Mike I'm glad someone else agrees with me on that. If it weren't in Lubbock it would get a lot more press.

[Jason McNamara]

Jason, It is true that golf is the greatest expense but it can also be a reasonable revenue producer. The biggest loser at clubs is the dining room followed by the pool and then the tennis courts. The 3 clubs  I play at all struggle on the dining end.

Jack, no argument there.  I was responding to others who tried to make the point that other Houston courses were more expensive because they were part of country clubs.  I disagree - I say River Oaks is going to be lots (and lots) of $ regardless of whether it's a golf club or a country club.

Fortunately 2 of the 3 are golf only. Some advantages of Champions as explained by a close friend who is one of their more prominent members is that it is nonequity,never had an assessment in 50 yrs, has great numbers to support it from a monthly cash flow standpoint. I'm not sure where you belong but if I lived in the Houston area I would add this to my liist of memberships-just a great group of guys.

I used to belong at Shadow Hawk, which I enjoyed immensely.  Another golf-only venue, totally walkable even in the Houston summer, no houses, and except for spring and fall Saturday mornings/holidays, basically it was walk up and play.  Lots of wonderful Tuesday afternoons seemingly alone on a fun course which asked for lots of different kinds of shots and clubs.

I have no doubt that Champions is a great club, but it seems to me that most join Champions more for the club than for the course(s).  I played there once, and of course loved the ravine par 3 (4th) and I also liked the shortish par 5 on the back, though many of the other holes struck me as same-y.  But I am not enough of a golf extrovert to really appreciate / take advantage of what I consider to be Champions' greatest strength, and I don't live nearby (a biggie for Houston).

[Matt_Ward]

Mike N:

Agree with you / re: Rawls Course. If it was located in Big D or another major metro area would likely get even more attention. Solid layout with a good mixture of different holes.

Jack C:

Hold the phone partner -- you throw your qualifications on the table and I simply mentioned mine. If you can't hack the fact that others might have seen and played more than you that's your problem -- not mine. I never questioned your opinions -- I simply highlighted where I draw my conclusions from. You don't know me from squat so don't begin to tell me I'm a "pompous ass" -- wonderful response.

Just remember -- respect works both ways. Show some and you'll get some. With a comment like "pompous ass" it's apparent you talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Chris:

Allow me to respond.

I respect people who do their homework. Far too often you have people throwing opinions from a very narrow sample size of courses that have actually been played by the person in question. Witness the contempt that Tom Fazio, Rees Jones and Jack Nicklaus, have all gotten and often times it's from people who have played at best a handful of their designs but see fit to broad brush their overall capabilities.

Then you have some folks who prefer to give opinions and critique mine simply from second and third hand accounts or solely through photographs. While such comments has some limited value -- they need to be put into some form of context.

I've tried to point these matters out and then people come back with a hissy fit because they've been called on the carpet that such opinions are rather limited because the field research isn't there to support it.

Instead of owning up to the fact -- the table gets turned back on me because I do challenge them. I could care less whether people agree with me or not. That's the God honest truth. But, I do expect people to do some serious homework before lobbing invective at me that I'm out to lunch with my comments.

Chris, how bout people really read the entire posts that I and others make -- not the cherry picking variety whereby people take one particular comments and then parlay that into something that was never said or implied. Why is it that comments aren't made to these same folks? I championed (no pun intended) the fact that Texas and other locales in the USA are making strides and have spoken specifically as to the courses of quality that have emerged from areas where such contributions were rather limited if not all existent. I also have said, time after time, that my critiques are not limited but often are rather strong for courses in my neck of the woods. I am far from being a homer of any type.

When you say people are criticizing my "delivery" instead of my comments I have to say this -- far too often people don't want to hear other comments that diverge either partially or significantly from theirs and instead lump such reactions into a "delivery" excuse. This is an architectural site and people are entitled to have strong opinions. If certain people have rabbit ears and thin skins then it's about time they realize that differences of opinions are not personal but based on methodology and serious probing analysis based on the ultimate examination -- a personal encounter with the courses in question.

I've had the benefit in playing a wide variety of courses and I try to provide some element of context from my involvement into the debate. Again, my opinions are simply mine and nothing more. People are free to disagree. Simple as that.

Thanks for sharing your comments ...

[mike_beene]

Matt, not a loaded question at all: how many of the Texas top 50 per DMN list have you played,and do you differ to a large degree with the list or just some specifics ? There are a bunch of courses I have not played.For example,I have never played in San Antonio,New York,New Jersey,Ireland,Australia or Asia. Thus ,I really cant compare those areas credibly. A lot of areas are just different anyway,but your broad travel makes me interested in your opinions as to how the Texas courses compare to each other, which is a different question than how Champions compares to Pine Valley.

[Lou_Duran]

Chris Brauner-

Well said.

I like to believe that I value substance well above style, and that my skin is pretty thick (thank God given my propensity for stepping into the messes that often devolve from political discussions on this site).  Matt doesn't offend me.

Matt-

Well said.

However, please drop the western references you've gotten in the habit of using (partner, buckaroo, all hat and no cattle, etc.).  They remind me a bit of the Pace hot sauce commercials we see in Texas.  You may wish to try a more nasal tone in your writing to better reflect where you're coming from.

The following post on another thread from the always erudite Bob Crosby better reflects what I was trying to get across regarding Champions attracting a large cadre of excellent players and how this fact corraborates my claim that it is a course of high standing:

"The kind of golf you play is determined in important respects by the kind of golf course you play. That - in a nutshell - is why golf architecture matters so much. In no other sport does the nature of the playing venue carry so much significance for the game played on it."  From George Pazin's thread on natural courses.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike please do not help us by asking for more. lol

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

Why I reply, I do not know. But it is the delivery.....If you made "I" statements, rather than "you" statements (i.e. keep it to your opinion, not dissect others) you would have a much easier go of it.

And, while we all "get into it" with others from time to time, on account of passion for the subject, who thinks there is any reason to be "called on the carpet" in a discussion board. And be graded on how much homework we did?  Is my opinion really less valuble than yours because I am 500 or more courses behind you?  How about the fifty I have designed, where does that count?

Reading your last post, another thought occurred.  Most experts say we truly have a limited amount of knowledge we can absorb and retain. If true, then perhaps someone who has seen "only" several hundred courses might very well be as conversant as someone who has seen or played 1500, as counter intuitive as that might be.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It is funny how hard it is to rate courses in Texas. I like Pecan Valley more than any of the rating servies. I have Deerwood and Crown Colony higher as well. I will not argue with Dallas National because so many I respect all make it close to or the top. Of the courses I have seen, played or feel really good about here we go. I am leaving out ones I have not seen
Colonial
Dallas National
Champions Cypress
Briggs Ranch
Carlton Woods Fazio
Pecan Valley
Brook Hollow
Whispering Pines
Waldon
Carleton Wood Jack
Crown Colony
Barton Creek C&C
Barton Creek Fazio
Preston Trail
Memorial Park
Horseshoe Bay Applewood
Rawls
Comanche Trace
Austin Cc
River Oaks
 


Ranked but I am not sure why
royal oaks
houston Cc
Hyatt Hill country
anything else at woodlands
redstone



I like either La Conterra better than Hyatt Hill country

[David Stamm]

Colonial is no doubt a very special place. I'm glad Anthony can give us a play by play of the work being done. It's nice to hear that it's in good hands it seems. Being a big Hogan fan, playing there definitely gets the juices going. And their professional staff is top notch. Dow Finsterwald, Jr. is a real gentleman as is Anthony Dodge, one of the assistants. A wonderful club worthy of it's high reputation and one hell of a course.

I hope to play Rawls later this year when I go to visit my wife's family in Midland. I was supposed to play it last year, but it was 21 degrees outside!

Tiger, I'm intrigued by your Pecan Valley statement. I've always though it looked a course well worth trying.

[mike_beene]

Tiger, I assume you mean Royal Oaks in Dallas,but there is a new course called Royal Oaks in Houston. I know you have wooditus,but the Horseshoe course is Applerock(which is by far my favorite Horseshoe course.)

[Sam Morrow]

Tiger I am so excited about you mentioning Pecan Valley, ever since my first junior event there in 2000 I have loved the golf course and considered it one of the best in Texas.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Mike sorry to disappoint you but I mean the highly overrated Houston course frequented by the Rockets, Astros etc. Royal Oaks looks like a black ski slope at mid ski season.  Also upps Applerock is correct and Applewood would be wrong. 
Sam I am with you. Pecan Valley is a good maintenance budget from being a great course, maybe the course the eyes of Texas look to for classical  inspiration. Much like Colonial and a handfull of others in Texas, Pecan Valley screams greatness.  The routing and design are very  good. It hit me like Laurel Country Club in Laurel Mississippi. The use of the natural topography is very good as well.  David please go see it asap. Play early like first off and on a Tuesday etc. Maintenance is average and pace of play is slow. Otherwise it is a treat from the gods. Oh the neighborhood is not much either. I am guessing that is the part of San Antonio which is home to aggies. It seems like a Texas A$M San Antonio campus would do well there.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I'll try to answer what you asked ...

I've played roughly 20 of the courses listed -- in some cases multiple rounds on more than a few.

Mike, one of the real strenghts for Texas golf as I have seen it evolve over the last 25 years is how the bar for quality golf architecture is growing rapidly - much of that is tied to the sheer diversification of courses in var different categories than years ago. Public golf for many years in Texas was really relegated to the muni's that were in or near the major metro areas (see Memorial or Tenison Park in Houston and Dallas respectively). That has changed dramatically as a diverse array of courses -- from CCFAD types to semi-private ones to others funded from different sources have come forward.

The sheer depth of courses throughout the state is starting to trickle down from the very elite places such as Dallas National and Colonial to such courses that are available to the masses.

Part of that success has got to be the elevation of what is considered stellar golf. The bar for such golf is now much, much higher than in years past where only the select limited private clubs could offer anything remotely near quality.

That's why I see Texas golf in having vast potential but given the lack of growth in the golf industry now such progress on that front may slow down a good bit. Candidly, the rise of quality public golf in the Lone Star State is very much improved and would be ahead now of the collective public courses I have played in such states as Pennsylvania and New York -- two states that have outstanding collection of private clubs but the public offerings are far, far less in their overall collective sense of architectural quality.

Gents:

Regarding Pecan Valley. I've played it three times over the years and it suffers from the Cobbs Creek, former Bethpage Black syndrome. The course is in need of some serious TLC. The layout is indeed quite good but the elements of detailing have been left to the side. Unfortunately, course assessment is a "what is" situation -- rather than a "what might be" outcome. Pecan Valley is one of those courses in which so much could be accomplished there. Whether that happens or not is hard to say.

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