[TEPaul]

"But would the angle of attack, in the context of the slope/angle of the putting surface be retained, or would balls be inclined to be deflected rather than stopped by the green as they are now ?


Patrick:

PATRICK, are you there??

If an alternate tee was created app 15 yards to the right does that sound to you like the angle of attack would be retained if one has ever really looked at that green? Do I have to explain everything to you? What if you have to make a potty call---will I have to explain that to you too?

From a tee app 15 yards to the right that green would lose some of the diagonal on the front right and the back left and it would actually become shallower front to back distance-wise but it would offer more of a "hold" to tee shots. A pretty interesting varietal alternative, I would say.

My God, the job of the MASTER teacher absolutely never ends.

[John Kirk]

A great thread.  Thanks much.

That 11th hole at Sand Hills is a bitch to get the distance right.  For those who don't know, it is a medium length par four, which sharply doglegs left.  The tee shot is downhill.  A three wood to the bottom of the hill is safe; hit driver to cut the corner a bit.  Cavernous bunker guarding the corner.

Anyway, typically you've got 125-150 yards in, and you just can't judge it.  You're down in a depression, so you can't tell what the wind is doing.  The story in my mind is..."OK, I've got 130 to the hole, I'll hit a hard pitching wedge...Oh, that's just right...(walking)...Oh, shit, 15 yards long or...Oh, shit, way short."

[James Bennett]

Patrick

I think that one of the issues you have in discussing skyline greens with Tom Paul is that you have a different perspective to him.  Or, in five words, 'you are taller than him'.  From your elevation (Tom might say 'lofty heights') you will see more of the trees than he will.

 

Good thread

James B

[wsmorrison]

What do you think of the flashed sand all the way to the top versus a partial grass face as exists today?  Thankfully they aren't grassed all the way down the face with perfectly flat sand bottoms and geometric lines 

[Patrick_Mucci]

"But would the angle of attack, in the context of the slope/angle of the putting surface be retained, or would balls be inclined to be deflected rather than stopped by the green as they are now ?


Patrick:

PATRICK, are you there??

If an alternate tee was created app 15 yards to the right does that sound to you like the angle of attack would be retained if one has ever really looked at that green? Do I have to explain everything to you? What if you have to make a potty call---will I have to explain that to you too?

From a tee app 15 yards to the right that green would lose some of the diagonal on the front right and the back left and it would actually become shallower front to back distance-wise but it would offer more of a "hold" to tee shots. A pretty interesting varietal alternative, I would say.

My God, the job of the MASTER teacher absolutely never ends.

That's because the two paragraphs above conflict with one another.
On one hand you say there is no difference, and on the other hand you say there is a difference, which was my point.

No wonder it took you four years to get through your Junior year.
Must I always bring these subtleties to your attention ? [/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

What do you think of the flashed sand all the way to the top versus a partial grass face as exists today?  Thankfully they aren't grassed all the way down the face with perfectly flat sand bottoms and geometric lines 

Wayno,

I have mixed feelings about it, especially on a skyline green as the bunkers add definition, they frame the green, assisting the golfer with depth perception, which somewhat mutes or defeats the purpose of a skyline green.

The trees on the left are certainly on SH property and could be easily removed.

The trees on the right aren't behind the green, though they might be from a tee left of the photographer.
It might be possible, with a good neighbor approach to have them pruned/removed.[/color]

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

Tom is exactly right about the effects of providing an alternative tee to the right of the existing one.  It would result in a complete skyline effect, and the approach angle into the green creates alternative advantages and disadvantages.  Here is a closeup of the green drawing.  Imagine an alternate angle of approach from a few degrees to the right.

[TEPaul]

"That's because the two paragraphs above conflict with one another.
On one hand you say there is no difference, and on the other hand you say there is a difference, which was my point."


Patrick:

You should learn how to read before making a remark like that. If you tee off from an area app 15-20 yards right of the present tee if app 3 feet of fill was moved right into that area of course there's a difference from the present tee. I never said it wouldn't be different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Patrick Mucci said:

"But would the angle of attack, in the context of the slope/angle of the putting surface be retained, or would balls be inclined to be deflected rather than stopped by the green as they are now ?

Then, TEPaul responded:

From a tee app 15 yards to the right that green would lose some of the diagonal on the front right and the back left and it would actually become shallower front to back distance-wise but it would offer more of a "hold" to tee shots.

Which is exactly what I asked in my original question.

I'm glad you agree with me in that the angle of attack into that green would be changed.
You sure have a funny way of agreeing with me.

[TEPaul]

One of the cool things about the 11th green if you analyze it and its surrounding area carefully enough is how it sits near the end of a narrow ridgeline just below the the round natural elevation area of the 12th tee. This natural ridgeline land formation is actually somewhat duplicated a few times down the beginning of the 12th hole. Note on the preconstruction topo map of the 11th hole that Wayne just provided that narrow natural ridgeline the 11th green sits on.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,

Patrick Mucci said:

"But would the angle of attack, in the context of the slope/angle of the putting surface be retained, or would balls be inclined to be deflected rather than stopped by the green as they are now ?

Then, TEPaul responded:

From a tee app 15 yards to the right that green would lose some of the diagonal on the front right and the back left and it would actually become shallower front to back distance-wise but it would offer more of a "hold" to tee shots.

Which is exactly what I asked in my original question.

I'm glad you agree with me in that the angle of attack into that green would be changed.
You sure have a funny way of agreeing with me.  "




Patrick:

You really do have a hard time reading don't you? Apparently you can't even read what you write yourself.

I wasn't agreeing with you I was simply answering a question you asked. You asked the question whether a change of the angle of attack into that green would alter the playing characteristics of the shot and I explained to you exactly how they would change from the existing tee. If you agree with my answer it would seem you are rather more agreeing with me, wouldn't it?  And that would certainly make sense since you've obvioiusly never even looked at an angle of attack into that green from a tee app 15 yards to the right of the existing tee.

Furthermore, I've been dealing with you long enough to know that in a day or two you will probably claim that the idea was yours. 

It's no different than when I explained to you all the interesting angles of attack into the Road Hole green at NGLA for other iterations on other courses and in a day or two you pretended you thought of it. Matter of fact, you didn't just pretend you thought of it you actually tried to say you explained it to me. It's laughable how you do that.

Just keep listening to your MASTER teacher Big Guy and one of these days you may learn how to pick some of these things up on your own although I'm definitely not going to hold my breath on that expectation! You may even learn how to do it without making stupid suggestions like moving the driveway and the unique gates of golf clubs.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"TEPaul,

Patrick Mucci said:

"But would the angle of attack, in the context of the slope/angle of the putting surface be retained, or would balls be inclined to be deflected rather than stopped by the green as they are now ?

Then, TEPaul responded:

From a tee app 15 yards to the right that green would lose some of the diagonal on the front right and the back left and it would actually become shallower front to back distance-wise but it would offer more of a "hold" to tee shots.

Which is exactly what I asked in my original question.

I'm glad you agree with me in that the angle of attack into that green would be changed.
You sure have a funny way of agreeing with me.  "

Patrick:

You really do have a hard time reading don't you? Apparently you can't even read what you write yourself.

I wasn't agreeing with you I was simply answering a question you asked. You asked the question whether a change of the angle of attack into that green would alter the playing characteristics of the shot and I explained to you exactly how they would change from the existing tee. If you agree with my answer it would seem you are rather more agreeing with me, wouldn't it?  And that would certainly make sense since you've obvioiusly never even looked at an angle of attack into that green from a tee app 15 yards to the right of the existing tee.

Evidently you've forgotten two things (I'm being kind)
One, the use of the Socratic method.
And, Two, I'll let Bob Huntley my methodology for asking questions.
I'm sure he remembers the court case with the lawyer cross examining the police officer on a DWI case.[/color]

Furthermore, I've been dealing with you long enough to know that in a day or two you will probably claim that the idea was yours. 

No, I won't be claiming that, that's your idea.[/color]

It's no different than when I explained to you all the interesting angles of attack into the Road Hole green at NGLA for other iterations on other courses and in a day or two you pretended you thought of it. Matter of fact, you didn't just pretend you thought of it you actually tried to say you explained it to me. It's laughable how you do that.

Paging George Bahto, white courtesy phone please.
You may recall that you disagreed with me when I pointed out that the 7th green at NGLA could be played from anyone of 360 degrees, claiming that it couldn't be played from the 8th fairway.  That's when I pointed out to you that playing to # 7 green from the 8th fairway was the mirror image of playing it from the 7th fairway.

If only your memory was as good at recollection as your fingers are at typing [/color]

Just keep listening to your MASTER teacher Big Guy and one of these days you may learn how to pick some of these things up on your own although I'm definitely not going to hold my breath on that expectation! You may even learn how to do it without making stupid suggestions like moving the driveway and the unique gates of golf clubs.

While the gates are unique, their location isn't.

And, a tee could be located just in front of the current gate, adding the yardage needed while preserving the angle of attack into the fairway.

The same applies to # 7, where the "hotel" bunker complex has become obsolete.

Paging George Bahto, white courtesy phone please.[/color]

[JESII]

OK boys, recess is over, back to work...

Tom and Wayne,

You guys seem to advocate an additional tee 15 - 20 yards to the right of the current tee on the premise of creating a more complete skyline effect...would the reduction of that really cool approach angle really be worth the benefit of a more complete skyline effect?

Angles and diagonal features are one of the really cool things about certain shots in golf and #11 at Shinnecock is among the top of that list...why would you recommend comprimising that? What golfing benefit could three feet in elevation and a chainsaw do to make up for the loss of the current angle of approach?

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