Next up the Honda...At a classic?

[Dean Stokes]

This week the Big Show moves to Florida and the Champion course at PGA National.
I've been fortunate to play the course several times and would think it has to be one of the best courses in Florida.
Nicklaus made some changes before last year's event and the course received much praise from the golfers. The rye is up and if the wind blows we'll see a real test on one of the toughest back nines there is.
I wondered if any GCA's have played this course and what you think of it?

[John Moore II]

The course certainly looks difficult and from the scores this week, its playing very difficult as well. The wind has also been strong this week down here, so that makes even more of a test. I would certainly say it is one of the most challenging courses in Florida, if not one of the overall greatest.

[Steve Kline]

The course looks like typical Florida to me. Lots of water and lots of houses. I've never played it, and watching it on TV doesn't give me any desire to. The fact that are two par 3s in the span of three holes that are so similar seems pretty lame to me.

[Dean Stokes]

Steve, the two par 3's are fairly similar in looks, fortunately they play in different directions. Both do also happen to be very good holes.

They were talking on TV yesterday saying that the 15th could almost be as exciting and difficult as the 17th at TPC. I would agree that it is not as exciting due to the tournament stature and also location on the course, however I would consider it a much harder hole due to length and the shape of the green.

I talked with some of the caddies the other night who all agreed this is one of the best courses the tour plays all year. As you said Steve it does look like your typical Florida course on TV which is unfortunate - it is much better in person and well worth playing for anybody who enjoys a firm test of all aspects of your game.

I do hope Tiger gives it a go in years to come.

[BCrosby]

I played PGA National five or six times on a golf outing about ten years ago. The course was remarkable for how forgettable it was.

As Steve notes above, is there a rule somewhere that says all fw's on FLA courses have to be bounded by water on one side and homes on the other? Or have I just had bad luck with my choices of FLA golf?

I've not seen the new changes. 

Bob

[Dean Stokes]

Since the changes the only thing forgettable now might be your score

[Michael Powers]

Played it a few times, and found it very difficult, especially the finish from all the way back.  They were playing the ladies tees yesterday on 15 and 17 and many were still hitting it in the water.  This course would probably not make my top 25 in Florida.

[Adam Clayman]

From what little I've watched on TGC...Are those the flattest greens in golf?

These guys can sure putt str8.

[John Moore II]

If the greens are so flat, it certainly isn't showing on the scorecards. Usually when the greens are easy scores are low. Scores are not low. That would lead me to believe that the entire course is fairly difficult.

[Dean Stokes]

From what little I've watched on TGC...Are those the flattest greens in golf?

These guys can sure putt str8.

They are not flat Adam but they are not very undulated. Nice subtle breaks and running at a good speed today. Very gusty winds out there today - I would not expect the scoring to be too low.

[Matt_Ward]

Dean:

I've played the Champ a few times and while my overall feelings on Florida golf is far from being a fan of what one generally finds -- I can say this with a high degree of certainty -- the Champ is well done given the general limitations of Florida golf architecture.

No doubt the fanfare is tied to the concluding holes -- people in watching the telecast don't realize just how good the 15th and 17th holes are. They are a good ways different from each other and they require careful execution for any type of success.

The Champ gives you opportunities to score early -- because if you don't do it then -- reclaiming shots later in the round will be very difficult.

I'll say this with a degree of certainty from my personal experiences -- for all the hype and talk that Doral / Blue and Bay Hill get -- the Champ is no less their equal in terms of overall challenge.

[Dean Stokes]

Couldn't agree more Matt. The 'bear trap' is getting a lot of the glory but the whole back nine is just tough. It is a shame they put the tee up on #17 by 35 yards as that is a great hole from the back. That could definitely damage a few scorecards.

[jeffwarne]

I played the Champions course years ago in the National Club Pro.
completely forgettable.
I've played it since the changes (not by choice) and didn't notice any "improvement", just different.

Agreed it is tougher than Doral (which means nothing) , but just because they have more houses and more Florida formulaic water right condo left holes. I much prefer Doral to PGA National , but I wouldn't say Doral's a great course.

If the caddies think this is one of the better courses the tour plays all year, it says something about where the tour plays or the caddies (or me).
So far this year Kapalua, Riviera, Pebble, come to mind as great courses, and I'd venture that ANYWHERE else the tour has played (or will play) is at least as good.

[TEPaul]

Dean:

I played all those PGA National courses but it's been a long time ago now.

My recollection of them is they were basically like all the other good Florida courses of that time and era. I wasn't interested in architecture back then but I do know my recollection of them was pretty different from my recollection of the likes of Seminole or even Jupiter Hills.

I even remember my recollection of Pine Tree, a course my dad was one of the original principals of, was not much different than the PGA National and some of those good big long Florida courses of that era.

They just all sort of felt the same to me then compared to courses like Seminole or Jupiter Hills. Maybe it was just a matter of the similarity of their basic sites. Seminole and Jupiter Hills seemed pretty different for that reason alone, at least to me.

And then eventually along comes a guy called Pete Dye with his Old Marsh out there. Now that was just a completely different cat altogehter from the rest and a whole different feeling from all the others.

[Dean Stokes]

I played the Champions course years ago in the National Club Pro.
completely forgettable.
I've played it since the changes (not by choice) and didn't notice any "improvement", just different.

Agreed it is tougher than Doral (which means nothing) , but just because they have more houses and more Florida formulaic water right condo left holes. I much prefer Doral to PGA National , but I wouldn't say Doral's a great course.

If the caddies think this is one of the better courses the tour plays all year, it says something about where the tour plays or the caddies (or me).
So far this year Kapalua, Riviera, Pebble, come to mind as great courses, and I'd venture that ANYWHERE else the tour has played (or will play) is at least as good.

I'm not sure if you're watching the tournament or have played the course with the new tees and in this condition Jeff - there is nothing forgettable about it.

[jeffwarne]

Dean,
Are there really 18 holes or 15?
I'm sure there's some redundancy the last 4 holes. (esp. with all the right pins)
Rye grass looks good on TV.
Not sure why they need it in South Florida.

Do lots of new tees make a course better?
If the PGA Tour doesn't even use all of them it'd be kind've silly for me to go back there. (in fact if I did I'm sure I'd want to forget)

The course I prefer are quite a bit more subtle. (perhaps I'm just a pansie)
How strategically meaningful is water short, right ,and long when it's on every hole?

[Gordon Oneil]

I think sometimes "better" is just different or a change of pace from the norm.  I just got back from watching my buddy in the Honda and it was brutal out there.  Please don't misunderstand, PGA National is a significantly better than average golf course which, one week a year, plays as a very challenging test of the game of golf.  
That doesn't make it a special golf course design at all.  But many variables come into play to contribute to this.

First and obviously, it has been lengthened over recent years (how many I'm not sure) to over 7,200 yards with three holes under 375.  Par is 70 rather than 72 for this event (I know, I know, par is just a number but to these guys a number is exactly what they focus on).  The Honda is played during the windiest month of the year.  The overseeded rye rough was pretty long, very thick at the bottom with the bermuda underneath.  Several of the longer, 450+, require a layup off of the tee due to either a water hazard, fairway bunkering and/or significant pinching of the driving area.  

The greens were pretty quick, fairly firm, looked very grainy and surrounded again by that considerable rough.  And from a non-PGA Tour Pro perspective, a vast majority of the tee shots have either water or Oscar Bravo on one or BOTH sides of the fairway.

Please, this is just an explanation of the observations I made while watching play today in person.  NONE of this makes the golf course or the event great.  But, and you may include a vastly improved resort hotel here, it does set the Honda Classic apart from the run of the mill, average tour event.  Six under par was the winning score.  I'm willing to bet very, very few players were even par or better on the weekend.  All due to the setup and conditions mostly.  And all of this contributes to making a somewhat penal design (IMHO) as "difficult" and certainly different than most other events played on the tour.

[Gordon Oneil]

BTW, the buddy I was watching, Dudley Hart, shot 72-74 on the weekend for a 280 total.
Wasn't a birdie-fest or a putting contest, fo sho.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

Lets be a bit more forthcoming -- if Doral Blue and Bay Hill are top 100 courses I'd like anyone to unearth for me the real reasons why they are acclaimed for what they are -- and then the Champ gets thrown into the basket as Florida overkill ?

Frankly, the idea that simply because the pins were cut on the right side -- for a bit of information the pin on #13 was hard left -- the pin on #16 was also hard left. You could stick the pin in the middle of the par-3 15th and 17th and the nature of those holes would be no less than what you saw.

Let me point out for those who may not be aware -- the frontal pin placement on #17 is no less demanding than the rear position.

And, for all the bitching and moaning that goes into the lack of really great 3-shot par-5 holes the finale at the Champ is extremely good for what it makes players do -- and that's think for all three shots.

I'm the last guy to salute Florida golf as a whole -- but I'm more than prepared to defend the Champ against the likes of Doral Blue and Bay Hill any day of the week. For those who wish to do so the line begins here.

[Glenn Spencer]

I enjoyed the final round and the golf course. My favorite golf tournament is one that finishes with scores like the ones that were shot on Sunday and one guy goes pretty low from out in front and wins it. If nothing else, the course separated itself in this manner. It doesn't happen a lot that 3-under brings you from that far back. Score variety is something that I like. I can't imagine Matt having to defend it very hard against Doral and its 30,000 bunkers.

[tlavin]

Gents:

Lets be a bit more forthcoming -- if Doral Blue and Bay Hill are top 100 courses I'd like anyone to unearth for me the real reasons why they are acclaimed for what they are -- and then the Champ gets thrown into the basket as Florida overkill ?

Frankly, the idea that simply because the pins were cut on the right side -- for a bit of information the pin on #13 was hard left -- the pin on #16 was also hard left. You could stick the pin in the middle of the par-3 15th and 17th and the nature of those holes would be no less than what you saw.

Let me point out for those who may not be aware -- the frontal pin placement on #17 is no less demanding than the rear position.

And, for all the bitching and moaning that goes into the lack of really great 3-shot par-5 holes the finale at the Champ is extremely good for what it makes players do -- and that's think for all three shots.

I'm the last guy to salute Florida golf as a whole -- but I'm more than prepared to defend the Champ against the likes of Doral Blue and Bay Hill any day of the week. For those who wish to do so the line begins here.

Matt,

I'm shocked to say this, but I agree with you.  I think the Champ is the equal of either of those two.

[Matt_Ward]

Terry:

Agreeing wasn't that difficult was it?

For too long, IMHO, Doral Blue and Bay Hill have benefited inordinately from PGA Tour coverage. If you didn't have the events the likelihood of either of those two being rated among the top 100 courses in the USA would be likely next to no chance.

The Champ at PGA National does have its limitations as I previously mentioned -- no doubt people are spot on concerning the predictable water on one side and houses on the other side for many of the holes there. However, the entire back nine is very, very good. You simply have to have total control of the golf ball in order to get into the proper positions to think about birdie.

No doubt the par-3 15th and 17th holes are rather similar with H20 on the right side but the wind directions encountered at both is usually different and the shot required to get near the pin can vary by as many several clubs.

Kudos to the folks at PGA National for the improved turf conditions -- my last time there was this past fall. The Champ may not elicit the fawning comments people reserve for Riviera and others of that ilk, but as I said before many people who visit Florida would be very surprised at just how rigorous and fair The Champ is for nearly all types of players.

One remaining item -- you didn't hear a word from players suggesting anything that was unfair. That speaks volumes to me.

[John Moore II]

Matt-I should say that the players are not complaining because they actually like to play courses that make them concentrate on every shot. This course does that. Is it a great course like that little 'semi' private just down the street on the ocean? No. But its one of the best that you will see on the regular tour in a given year, and certainly one of the hardest.

[Matt_Ward]

J. Kenneth Moore:

Appreciate your comments -- as I don't fancy myself a Florida guy - I do see The Champ as being one of the more under-appreciated courses in the state. No doubt the Tour coverage may likely help because more and more people will see what is there. I'm not suggesting The Champ is bulletproof -- Florida golf does have its limits -- but far too often the Honda site has been nothing more than a pass through for the players. That's not the case any longer.

[Gordon Oneil]

I've played both PGA National Champions course and Doral Blue "Monster" in FSGA competitions.  Conducted during the summer months, the golf courses play much differently than we saw last week and will see at Doral in a few weeks time.
In addition to the comments I posted on Monday, I have to agree with Matt.  But go one step further.  PGA Nat'l is a significantly better golf course than Doral in just about every way in which one would compare them.  Better design, better conditioned, more enjoyable to play...
And yes, try and find ONE complaint about the golf course or its setup from one of the tour pros since the Honda has returned to PGA two years ago.
Now look back at the yearly howling bitch-a-thon that occurs dating back to the first time they asked Raymond to tinker with the bunkering down at Doral...
To quote Matt, it "speaks volumes."