The Short hole at Old Macdonald:

[Tim Pitner]

Will Bandon break the $300/round barrier by 2010? 

Doesn't that depend upon supply and demand and what the market will bear ?

Does Bandon still offer a discount on second rounds ?[/color]

Pat,

Of course the market will determine the price, but if part of Keiser's vision is to enable people to experience MacDonald's designs (at least in spirit) who otherwise haven't had the opportunity to do so because his courses are exclusive, then that goal would be undermined by prices approaching Pebble Beach-levels.  

[Bryan Izatt]

NGLA seems loosely based on Brancaster from the pictures.  And probably OM will be loosely based on NGLA.  Where does the "template" concept come apart?

[Adam Clayman]

The concept looks positively fundamental. Getting one close on such a large target will really be a challenge.

 Couple of Q's...

Is this the first one shotter in the round?

How does it "fit into" it's sequence with it's surrounding holes and how much consideration was given to that?

[Bryan Izatt]

If any of the five architects are still reading  this thread, I thought the following was an "on topic" question that was interesting.  Did I miss a response?  As a supplementary, what is the "shot value" for a "Short"?

Okay, I will try a "Back on topic" post.
All those involved -
I asked back on an earlier page, what is the tee set-up, configuration, design looking like it is going to be?  Do you see providing various angles into this monster? Or will that not work based on the surface contours? The yardage differnce on a daily basis can be significant based on the green size alone, but how much variance in yardage at the tees do you imagine providing. My first impression is that you are creating many different shot values at the green but do you continue that with tee variety?

DbD

[Kalen Braley]

Bandon is a really interesting animal in my book.

On the one hand its a remote small town that you would miss driving thru if you blinked.  There really is nothing much else going on there besides the golf and the small pub on location.  Its a real bitch to get to for the ordinary Joe who can't afford to fly into the local county airport.

The tee sheets are full for more or less most of the year, with most of those paying at least $210 (peak rate) for thier first round and $105 for thier 2nd.  The on-site lodging is far from inexpensive and they probably easily make back in lodging the difference on the $265 non-resort guest rate.  And most of them likely eat at the on-site resturant/pub which probably have much better than average retail food marigins.

And yet thru all this they remain packed and wildy popular and I wonder who is supporting all this?  Is the Bandon Resort really just turning into the Pebble Beach of Oregon for corporate getaways/meetings where most of these guys aren't footing the bill?  Its a world class location no doubt, but with its high prices and remote locale, I just really wonder what % of the "Average" peak season joes are acutally paying for thier trip?

On the other hand, if people are coming and the sheets are full, its hard to fault the resort for continuing to increase prices.  Why should they not take full advantage of executing and creating a unique first class golf experience?  Its not like golf is a neccessity like electricity or heat. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I feel torn.  I'm sure the results have even exceeded Mike K's original vision/expectations, which is just super.  But on the other hand, its tough cause now as Tom H has alluded to, many hardcore types are getting priced out of the market and its seems to be turning into a corporate getaway location.  I hope I'm wrong on this, I really do.....

[Reef Wilson]

I've heard a disturbing rumour though. Do they not have Guinness in the pub any more?

 That is disturbing. Somebody say it aint so.

I enjoyed several frosty ones in McKees just a few weeks ago, so if true it would have had to have been since then.

[Norbert P]

. . .  in B&W - you can almost imagine Mr. MacDonald on that green!

I think the path was made by the ginger beer cart.

[Bill_McBride]

. . .  in B&W - you can almost imagine Mr. MacDonald on that green!

I think the path was made by the ginger beer cart.

So do we call the bunker "Cartgate?" 

[Scott Weersing]

Bandon is a really interesting animal in my book.

On the one hand its a remote small town that you would miss driving thru if you blinked.  There really is nothing much else going on there besides the golf and the small pub on location.  Its a real bitch to get to for the ordinary Joe who can't afford to fly into the local county airport.

The tee sheets are full for more or less most of the year, with most of those paying at least $210 (peak rate) for thier first round and $105 for thier 2nd.  The on-site lodging is far from inexpensive and they probably easily make back in lodging the difference on the $265 non-resort guest rate.  And most of them likely eat at the on-site resturant/pub which probably have much better than average retail food marigins.

And yet thru all this they remain packed and wildy popular and I wonder who is supporting all this?  Is the Bandon Resort really just turning into the Pebble Beach of Oregon for corporate getaways/meetings where most of these guys aren't footing the bill?  Its a world class location no doubt, but with its high prices and remote locale, I just really wonder what % of the "Average" peak season joes are acutally paying for thier trip?

On the other hand, if people are coming and the sheets are full, its hard to fault the resort for continuing to increase prices.  Why should they not take full advantage of executing and creating a unique first class golf experience?  Its not like golf is a neccessity like electricity or heat. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I feel torn.  I'm sure the results have even exceeded Mike K's original vision/expectations, which is just super.  But on the other hand, its tough cause now as Tom H has alluded to, many hardcore types are getting priced out of the market and its seems to be turning into a corporate getaway location.  I hope I'm wrong on this, I really do.....

I wonder how many people from this site have been to Bandon on a corporate getaway.
I did see a few people who were going to meetings on our visit last month. On the other hand, there was a group of 38 golfers from Bellingham Golf and CC (Washington) that played 36 holes for four days in a row. I got to finish up my second 18 on Bandon Dunes with two of them. I did think they were a little crazy as it is a 10 hour drive back to Washington. They were going to drive 5 hours on Sunday night and the rest of Monday. I also looked at the group sheet at the restaurant. It listed different golf groups that were at the resort. I did not see any corporate groups on the list.

The price of the golf and rooms for February 2008 are the same rates as February 2005. So I would guess the rates in February 2010 won't be that much higher. March seems like a good time to go as the rates are lower. I think they go to full rates for April to October.

[John Kavanaugh]

You really need to see all the new infrastructure that is being built.  I am dissapointed but not surprised at the cry baby attitude about pricing.  On a beautiful sunny day I payed $90 to play Bandon and then $45 to play Pacific.  My room, which I shared, was only $75 per night.  Where is the problem?  Oh yea, for you tack it on ticky tacks, the room tax is 1%....a whopping 75 cents.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Scott, You might be interested in knowing that NW golf pros have been given the opportunity to bring groups from their clubs to play Bandon in the wintertime. 

I have been going with Oakbrook Golf & Country club in early January for the last two years.  We had 20 this year.  Pumpkin Ridge shows up with over seventy.  The package we go on is 2 nights, 2 rounds of golf and a dinner. All for less than two rounds of golf at sumer rates.  Rates for January are less than those for February etc. 

And only a 7 1/2 hour drive

[Richard Boult]

The 490 yard par 5 17th green at Monarch Dunes is 17,000 sqft and is very undulating and fast.  Sprinklers can be found ON the green, located a few feet from the fringe. Interestingly, in my 1 or 2 hundred rounds there, I've never had to take relief due to a sprinkler being in my putting line. It is very common to get on this green in 2 with 2 good shots and 3-putt for par.  If you end up 140 yards out after 2 shots, making par from that distance is a challenge!

[Kyle Henderson]

The 490 yard par 5 17th green at Monarch Dunes is 17,000 sqft and is very undulating and fast.  Sprinklers can be found ON the green, located a few feet from the fringe. Interestingly, in my 1 or 2 hundred rounds there, I've never had to take relief due to a sprinkler being in my putting line. It is very common to get on this green in 2 with 2 good shots and 3-putt for par.  If you end up 140 yards out after 2 shots, making par from that distance is a challenge!

The "volcano" in that green simply must be seen to be believed. It's outrageous!

[Eric Olsen]

The cost and the nature of the experience at Bandon have been discussed on many different threads.  I have gone at least once per year since BD first opened in 1999, and it continues to evolve.  My preference is actually for the winter, for the variety of weather experiences, and the cost structure certainly helps as it is more affordable.   But in the summer, you can do 54 holes per day, which we did 3 days in a row last June.  That brings your cost per round under 100, which is a pretty awesome bargain!

[JC Urbina]

David

The teeing grounds will be similar to the 18th at Pacific Dunes. The lower tees flow with the contour of the land, as do many of the teeing grounds at Pacific Dunes.   At Old Macdonald in most cases they will not be confining.

I mentioned this Quote from Hunter a few years back.

From the Book:
                      The Links
                  by Robert Hunter

" The first and most important point to have in mind in building tees is to make them wherever possible indistinguishable from a fine bit of the fairway"

[Jeff_Mingay]

That's a great quote, Jim.

All best throughout development of Old Macdonald,

[Eric Olsen]

David

The teeing grounds will be similar to the 18th at Pacific Dunes. The lower tees flow with the contour of the land, as do many of the teeing grounds at Pacific Dunes.   At Old Macdonald in most cases they will not be confining.

I mentioned this Quote from Hunter a few years back.

From the Book:
                      The Links
                  by Robert Hunter

" The first and most important point to have in mind in building tees is to make them wherever possible indistinguishable from a fine bit of the fairway"

When you say that it will be like 18 at PD, does this mean that the angles into the green will be different as you use the higher tees?  The upper tees at 18 PD offer a very different driving angle than the lower tee, where the drive is straighter (albeit with the bunker(s) more in play).  With the size of this green, there would seem to be a tremendous number of potential angles into the green, assuming you have that many potential tee boxes, of course.

[Tom Huckaby]

You really need to see all the new infrastructure that is being built.  I am dissapointed but not surprised at the cry baby attitude about pricing.  On a beautiful sunny day I payed $90 to play Bandon and then $45 to play Pacific.  My room, which I shared, was only $75 per night.  Where is the problem?  Oh yea, for you tack it on ticky tacks, the room tax is 1%....a whopping 75 cents.

It's not a crybaby attitude at all, John.  Read my first post in this thread.  I understand the reality.  It just is tough not to wish for better days when one once paid $70 + $35 for replay for what one is now charged $210 plus whatever.

As for your beautiful sunny day, well... either you got very lucky or those of us who went in Feb 2007 got very unlucky.  In any case, the winter rates remain a very good deal; the issues some of us have are about summer rates, and wondering if winter rates will still be a good deal two+ years from now.  We shall see.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

The cost and the nature of the experience at Bandon have been discussed on many different threads.  I have gone at least once per year since BD first opened in 1999, and it continues to evolve.  My preference is actually for the winter, for the variety of weather experiences, and the cost structure certainly helps as it is more affordable.   But in the summer, you can do 54 holes per day, which we did 3 days in a row last June.  That brings your cost per round under 100, which is a pretty awesome bargain!

But with the summer crowds, is 54 even a reality any more?  It took us 5 hours at least to play each round last winter... and it wasn't us going slow.  I guess each time I go I seem to hit crowds that aren't there when others go.  My bad luck, I guess.  Also, when one has to play 54 holes to make something a decent deal, well.... that's stretching things.  Not everyone can manage that much golf in one day.

Man I hate being negative, but I also can't abide by false optomism.  My experience going to the resort three times over the course of six years (twice summer, once winter) is indeed that each time it got more crowded, more expensive, and with what I look at as worse clientele.  I have a really hard time believing this path won't do anything but continue, and get worse once OM is opened.

It really did use to be golf as it should be.  Now?  I wonder....

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

When I made my last post on this thread in the back of my mind I was thinking about the airport expansion thread from last summer.  Just went back and re-read it and will include this quote:

Airline passengers and lottery players are paying for a $31 million airport expansion to serve the 5,000 business jets that arrive each year, filled almost entirely with golfers. Many of them are executives of publicly traded companies flying at a small fraction of the real cost of their trips;

Before the first golf course opened in 1999, perhaps three private jets a year landed here, said Gary W. LeTellier, the airport director. Last year 5,000 private jets came;

Its this trend that seems to be the most indicative of Bandon Resort turning into Pebble Beach.

[Norbert P]

Kalen, wow, that is a telling stat.    From 3 to 5000 jets. That's over 13 per day.      Sweet junkets !   

Seems strange that updating a control tower, maybe building a lounge, and extending a flat tarmac could cost 31 million clams. That's a lot of clams.

[Tom_Doak]

I have been working in the Caribbean this week (away from all computer connectivity) and it seems I'm about 100 posts behind on this thread, though I'm glad to see that Jim Urbina has tried to answer the real questions that were posed.  If anybody's got more questions for me, I'll have a chance to look at them on Sunday or Monday -- once my wife and kids have gotten tired of my return and gone back to their own computers!

As for the question about the tees on #5 -- we are trying to build them all between 165 yards and 125, so they will swing around to the left a ways from where the photo was taken (by Bruce Hepner, for the person who asked).  But, there is no opportunity to play into the green more lengthwise than the angle shown, because the fourth green is in the way of that.  I don't know if I would have wanted to do that anyway; the view from the fourth green to the fifth is pretty startling because you see the full tilt of the green from upper right to lower left.

[Tim Bert]

But with the summer crowds, is 54 even a reality any more?  It took us 5 hours at least to play each round last winter... and it wasn't us going slow.  I guess each time I go I seem to hit crowds that aren't there when others go.  My bad luck, I guess.  Also, when one has to play 54 holes to make something a decent deal, well.... that's stretching things.  Not everyone can manage that much golf in one day.

Man I hate being negative, but I also can't abide by false optomism.  My experience going to the resort three times over the course of six years (twice summer, once winter) is indeed that each time it got more crowded, more expensive, and with what I look at as worse clientele.  I have a really hard time believing this path won't do anything but continue, and get worse once OM is opened.

It really did use to be golf as it should be.  Now?  I wonder....

TH

Short answer - yes, 54 is still a reality in the summer.  We played in late June 2007.  We played 54 the first day and could have played 54 the following two days if we weren't too tired to get out and do it.  We had the first time out each day, and we played at a 4:00 to 4:15 pace each morning.  The afternoon slowed up a bit, but wasn't approaching 5 hours.  Probably more like 4:30 which is pretty reasonable for a resort.

I've been three different years, all in June, and wouldn't have had trouble playing 54 due to time contraints or golfing traffic on any of the 8 days I've played golf at the resort.

The morning and afternoon tee sheet is pretty stacked but NO ONE is playing in the late afternoon / early evening.  The change in clientele that you reference is actually a blessing for the hard core golfer looking to play 54 because most of the visitors are in the bar or the hot tub by 6:00.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tim - very well.  But you also proved my point - you were too tired to go do the third 18 at least one of the days.  I'd have to guess most would be the same; thus the fallacy of basing the "good deal" on playing 54 holes.  Not everyone can do such, or wants to.

TH

[George Pazin]

As for the question about the tees on #5 -- we are trying to build them all between 165 yards and 125, so they will swing around to the left a ways from where the photo was taken

Just out of curiosity - and because I'm not at home to look at George's fantastic book - how many sets of tees did Macdonald's courses usually have?