The Short hole at Old Macdonald:

[Mark Bourgeois]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

Good post John K...

[John Kavanaugh]

I do think it is important to stay away from the disgusting side of this project and realize that the course is going to be a fine spot to spend time with friends.  It's just not quite a strip down naked and beat a drum moment as is implied.  I can not express how happy I am to have seen the course during construction and how that will enhance my experience when I return.

I am looking forward to future pictures and discussion because I want to see if Tom lets anyone else hold the flag.  I do love to study the hierarchy of photo postitioning when it comes to seeing who contributes to a team.

[Bill_McBride]

I do think it is important to stay away from the disgusting side of this project and realize that the course is going to be a fine spot to spend time with friends.  It's just not quite a strip down naked and beat a drum moment as is implied.  I can not express how happy I am to have seen the course during construction and how that will enhance my experience when I return.

I am looking forward to future pictures and discussion because I want to see if Tom lets anyone else hold the flag.  I do love to study the hierarchy of photo postitioning when it comes to seeing who contributes to a team.

John, I'm curious, what is "the disgusting side of this project..."?

[John Kavanaugh]

I do think it is important to stay away from the disgusting side of this project and realize that the course is going to be a fine spot to spend time with friends.  It's just not quite a strip down naked and beat a drum moment as is implied.  I can not express how happy I am to have seen the course during construction and how that will enhance my experience when I return.

I am looking forward to future pictures and discussion because I want to see if Tom lets anyone else hold the flag.  I do love to study the hierarchy of photo postitioning when it comes to seeing who contributes to a team.

John, I'm curious, what is "the disgusting side of this project..."?

Bill,

I will not destroy this great thread with opinions I have stated clearly time and time again.  Keep up.

[Michael Dugger]

Anyone with half a ball in this fight would go see the course under construction.  It is selfish to wait until it opens.

I had not noticed anyone fighting, John, unless you are.

Doak/Urbina et all + awesome piece of land = fantastic golf course.

I cannot wait!!!

I have but one question, if I make another pilgrimmage to Bandon come Nov. '08 or so will I be able to get a "taster" a la the first 7 holes at BT being offered to golfers before the entire course was finished?

[Michael Dugger]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

I think that's a jackass thing to say, Mark, in all honesty with all due respect.

Many of us come to this website because we LOVE golf course architecture.  We don't care about marketing, we are curious about what I believe is going to be an awesome new course.  To see this first teaser and be able to read the thought process that went behind its' creation, it's truly special.

We are lucky Doak/Bahto/Klein are willing to share, don't ever forget it. 

Don't be a moron, Mark.  Conspiracy theories have no home here.

[Eric Olsen]

I will be in Bandon over Easter.  Is it possible to get a walking tour of the new course as it is being built?

[Kirk Gill]

In the oldest photo, the largest mound in the distance is the 16th tee at Pac Dunes.  The more recent photo shows the gorse removed from the dune slopes that surround that tee....one can see in it's place the dark green hydroseeded fescue.

I was wondering why that dune appeared to be so much smaller, like the top got cut off of it. Is that all the effect of gorse removal on that dune? That's a lot of gorse!

[John Mayhugh]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

Good post John K...

For this audience, sharing the making of the course with us could be considered great marketing.  But just because it's effective doesn't mean that's the purpose.  There are a lot of us here that are intensely interested in the concept & execution of Old Macdonald.  I'm thrilled that the principals involved are willing to share developments with us.  If following these threads makes me more eager to play out in Bandon, so what?

[Bill_McBride]

I do think it is important to stay away from the disgusting side of this project and realize that the course is going to be a fine spot to spend time with friends.  It's just not quite a strip down naked and beat a drum moment as is implied.  I can not express how happy I am to have seen the course during construction and how that will enhance my experience when I return.

I am looking forward to future pictures and discussion because I want to see if Tom lets anyone else hold the flag.  I do love to study the hierarchy of photo postitioning when it comes to seeing who contributes to a team.

John, I'm curious, what is "the disgusting side of this project..."?

Bill,

I will not destroy this great thread with opinions I have stated clearly time and time again.  Keep up.

Here are your three comments prior to the “disgusting” comment.  If that’s your idea of disgusting…….I’m having my usual hard time following your thought process.

“I will admit when I am wrong.  This picture proves the team can be put to good use.”

“The green is close enough to your walk at Pacific that you will be able to recognize a friend without knowing what they are wearing.  It should be an excellent advertisement to get the Pacific players to skip Trails and come on over.”

“Anyone with half a ball in this fight would go see the course under construction.  It is selfish to wait until it opens.”

Honest, I’m trying to keep up, but it ain’t easy……….

[Bryan Izatt]

For a green that's around 45 yards deep and 45 yards across, does the bunkering serve a functional purpose, or is it part of the template?

The green is more like 30 yards deep and 60 across.  With a cross wind from the right, the bunker on the right will be a nasty hazard for holes on the right third of the green.  The two bunkers on the left guard the left pin shown.  The middle of the green is amply defended by contour.

  What percentage of the golfer demographic at Bandon do you suppose will miss a green of that size on any given day?  Even in the wind. 

I'll bet 30-40% of golfers miss the green on any given day.  It won't be easy to judge the distance in the wind.  Not too many will miss wide if they aim for the middle of the green, but aiming for the middle with the flag in the corner will be asking for a three-putt, or worse.

   Should the percentage that hit the horrid shot that misses green high right be further punished with a 12 foot deep bunker? 

The penal nature of that bunker will scare most people away from it.  Horrid shots will likely come up short because of the wind.

Will the edges of the green feed into the bunkers reducing the effective size of the green? 

They really don't much.  The right-hand pin position is the only flattish one there but it doesn't feed right.  Approach shots likely won't feed off into the left bunkers often (maybe some into the far left bunker, in a crosswind).  You could, however, putt into the front left bunker from the back of the green if you're not careful.


Ryan:  Gorse control is a big deal at Bandon Dunes Resort.  The maintenance staff would just as soon kill it all.  Jim and I want to save little bits here and there for contrast, but the little bits keep spreading aggressively.

Tom,

Thanks for the clarification on the dimensions of the green.  Does the hole run more or less the same direction as #14 at PD.  You're probably right about coming up short, at least in the winter winds.  I had a lot of trouble reaching 14 at PD into the southerly wind even at 120 yards. 

When #5 OM plays downwind, is 30 yards of depth going to be enough to stop the ball on the green.  What will be behind?

I guess my premise was that on days when the wind was say 2 clubs or less, most people would hit a green that size from 150ish yards.  If they can't, then they may never emerge from the right bunker. 

[Ian Andrew]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

And therein lies the problem - an architect (or group of architects in this case) offer to share something that people desire to see - and then get it turned around as being self serving.

I'm glad they presented the hole - I'm angry that their motives get questioned.

[Bill_McBride]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

And therein lies the problem - an architect (or group of architects in this case) offer to share something that people desire to see - and then get it turned around as being self serving.

I'm glad they presented the hole - I'm angry that their motives get questioned.

Ian, I am with you 100%.  This has the potential to be the most interesting information ever posted on GCA.com, and in real time as well.

[George Pazin]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

And therein lies the problem - an architect (or group of architects in this case) offer to share something that people desire to see - and then get it turned around as being self serving.

I'm glad they presented the hole - I'm angry that their motives get questioned.

I agree 1000% with Bill McBride - you're completely right in this observation, Ian.

[John Kavanaugh]

I have seen this site, seen the green posted in the picture and can tell you that there will be people who do not love this course.  Let's give them a chance to voice an opinion without repeated bashing to their skulls.  I have myself attempted to remain postive on this thread because the course is obviously going to be a fine spot to spend time in good company.  I just don't see myself stripping naked and beating a drum over it as implied.

[RJ_Daley]

I think they ought to have a film crew out there every day and film the process.  Then edit it to the good parts, and put it on U-Tube like Parsinien with Hanse and Crew are doing at Castle Stuart. 

This is smart marketing to geek up people like us here on GCA.com who will travel across continents to see and experience this stuff, and then spread the word and excitement.  It is the best of capitalism and ingenuity along with use of clever high tech marketing like putting it on U-Tube. 

Which archies are doing this one at Nairn?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVzc3RPJYrU

Caslte Stuart stuff you can browse further once you punch it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ck8q8MsF1e8&feature=related

[George Pazin]

I don't think anyone is bashing anyone else for questioning elements of the course. I think most are criticising those who question the motives of those choosing to share their thoughts with us.

Actually, I think some of the potential criticism of holes has already lead to interesting give and take, so I'd say if anyone has criticism, please share it. Just don't give the principals a reason to not share their thoughts and passion by questioning their motives.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

I think that's a total jackass thing to say, Mark, in all honesty with all due respect.

Many of us come to this website because we LOVE golf course architecture.  I don't give a damn about marketing, I am curious as all hell about what I believe is going to be an awesome new course.  To see this first teaser and be able to read the thought process that went behind its' creation, that is truly special.

We are lucky Doak/Bahto/Klein are willing to share, don't ever forget it. 

Don't be a moron, Mark.  Conspiracy theories have no home here.

Mark just said it out loud...I don't think that makes him a moron.

I love Doak's work, but seriously, what would he have said just a few years ago about a copy cat course being designed by committee?

I look forward to Old Macdonald and have no doubt it will be a blast to play...but am I the only one who wishes Keiser would have given another up and comer that piece of ground to work with? 

[Michael Dugger]

I have seen this site, seen the green posted in the picture and can tell you that there will be people who do not love this course. 

Very deep observation, Einstein.  Thankfully, there are plenty of Sandpines, Medinah #3's, The Bridges, Tullymores, Trump National's and Cascata's to keep those folks golfing.

Let's give them a chance to voice an opinion without repeated bashing to their skulls.  I have myself attempted to remain postive on this thread because the course is obviously going to be a fine spot to spend time in good company.  I just don't see myself stripping naked and beating a drum over it as implied.

I hadn't noticed anyone telling those people to shut up?  

I so tire of this sort of drivel, John.  Many of us here YEARN for this sort of golf design.  Windswept land, bold features, deep bunkers, long hay, prickly gorse and rumpled contours.  I think you overestimate how many of us are in a back room spanking the monkey over the concept of Old Macdonald.  Personally, I hate the name, but I believe with Doak et al on board, along with another magical piece of Bandon property, the course is going to be excellent whether built in the mold of NGLA or Fernandina Beach National!

Surely, the course will be nothing like anyone has ever seen before, because if Doak is anything, he is positively against "formulaic."  


 

[RJ_Daley]

Don, I don't feel any real allegiance to Kaiser, and I think he charges too much out there.  That said in the interest of trying to be objective of his choices; I don't feel he should have, nor been wiser or a better businessman to choose someone else or a different team.  I think he maximized his potential for success with the hottest archie (one he has already been well pleased with previous work) and assembled some of the best and most respected consultants for the team.  The novelty of doing a team approach to a tribute in concepts of an historical GCA theme, with the likes of the personalities on the team is just plain well considered, IMHO.

[Craig Van Egmond]

At the end of the day this is a golf architecture website and I for one am grateful that architects do come here and share aspects of the design process with us. The more the merrier.

The Bandon Resort and Kaiser certainly doesn't need any help with marketing. 

Personally, I probably won't ever make it back to Bandon so for me this will have to do.

[Bradley Anderson]

I bet that when this green has grass on it it will not seem so enormous as it does in this photo. I think rather it will present itself as just being really big in scale, which is basically how MacDonald built everything, except for tees. It clearly doesn't overwhelm it's site either, so I think it is a stroke of genius on the part of everyone involved in the project. I also think it is cool that they are sharing it with us.

My only critical thoughts are that the depth of the bunker might be a little too deep, especially if the pin is cut on the other side of the green. But then if the pin is on the other side, you really shouldn't be in that bunker.

[Michael Dugger]

Is this thread "The Making of Old Macdonald" or "The Marketing of Old Macdonald"?

I think that's a total jackass thing to say, Mark, in all honesty with all due respect.

Many of us come to this website because we LOVE golf course architecture.  I don't give a damn about marketing, I am curious as all hell about what I believe is going to be an awesome new course.  To see this first teaser and be able to read the thought process that went behind its' creation, that is truly special.

We are lucky Doak/Bahto/Klein are willing to share, don't ever forget it. 

Don't be a moron, Mark.  Conspiracy theories have no home here.

Mark just said it out loud...I don't think that makes him a moron.

I love Doak's work, but seriously, what would he have said just a few years ago about a copy cat course being designed by committee?

I look forward to Old Macdonald and have no doubt it will be a blast to play...but am I the only one who wishes Keiser would have given another up and comer that piece of ground to work with? 

Don,

I am sorry but I just don't buy into any theory that Bandon Dunes Resort is seeking free press here.

We talk about the place because the proof is in the puddin'.

In that regard, I think to question the motives of posting said image of the 5th hole is indeed moronic.  

Now, whether or not it would have been nice to see Gil Hanse or Kyle Phillips (hell, even Mike Nuzzo) work over that property instead of the Old Macdonald concept, well that's an entirely different topic.

I'm kinda surprised to read you say such a thing in lieu of the on-going journal that's been kept on the making of Wolf Run Point.  

How is this any different?  

[Lester George]

Brad,

A design group for the Old MacDonald, sounds interesting.

Lester

[Mike Mosely]

George, that is amazing!  Those undulations just gave me an adrenaline rush and I'm 300 miles away.