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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« on: February 23, 2008, 08:36:25 PM »


It is about 17,000 square feet total, has a hockey-stick shaped bunker on the right where you will see Brad Klein standing some 10-12 feet below the putting surface.

To show the scale of this green, off on the left you’ll see Jim Urbina standing where one of the two bunkers on that side of the green will probably be. Holding the flag is the Tom Doak and I am at the back of the green, two thirds to the right.

Yes, the undulations are real and even though the green is not quite finished they should remain as you see them here.

You might be happy 3-putting on occasion.

The prevailing seasonal wind is from the right.
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2008, 08:39:15 PM »
Thank you for posting, George. The green looks killer! The scale of it is just awesome!
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mark Bourgeois

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2008, 08:40:13 PM »
I see the hockey stick but where's the horseshoe?

George, posts like these are what make this such a great board -- thanks for sharing!

Neat how those back bumps reflect the step-downs of land's end in the deep background.

Mark
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Mike Sweeney

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2008, 08:41:27 PM »
George,

Is this the biggest green at the Bandon Resort? Without giving away any trade secrets, will the Old Mac greens be bigger than the other courses?

My first thought was The Knoll's short with an ocean thrown in.  8)
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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2008, 08:41:53 PM »
Same general sentiments as David Stamm.  Thanks for sharing.  For me, the boldness of the features will be the key to this course's success, and I couldn't be happier for you and the architecture team.
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Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2008, 08:49:32 PM »
Thanks for posting this George. How far will the "short" hole play out of curiosity?

Also will a shot on the far right of the green potentially fall/roll off into the hockey-stick bunker as it looks like in the picture?
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2008, 08:54:12 PM »
What Mark said, and my thanks as well George.

I'm not sure which I'd be more worried about, a hole cut where Tom's standing or one cut where you're standing.

I'm glad the prevailing wind is from the right.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 08:57:31 PM by Peter Pallotta »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2008, 09:06:00 PM »
PFC guys!

Thanks for posting, George.   You've gotta be in heaven out there.
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M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2008, 09:41:13 PM »
-- awesome
« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 04:37:26 PM by M. Shea Sweeney »
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Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2008, 09:43:21 PM »
Wow - That looks enormous!

What is the planned yardage from the green tees (or equivalent to the greens at the other courses?)
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Ian Andrew

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2008, 09:52:58 PM »
George,

I'm curious to learn - why so big?

Also is there other examples of the short that match this idea?
Was it to make use of the really large natural contours?
Was the influence the greens at St. Andrew's wher it just works in that grand scale?
Is it to create a massive amount of variety in distances and set -ups?

I'm very intregued by the size.

I'm excited to watch what you guys are creating - like the others - I appreciate the photos of the work in progress.

Ian
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Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2008, 10:21:47 PM »
George,

Is this #5?
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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2008, 10:36:20 PM »
I’ll just answer a few questions for now and leave much more for Tom and Jim to address.

Mike Sweeney: now you know the wide of the Knoll’s Short - this one is about TWICE as wide!

Ian: For starters, I would say the green, in some sense, reflects the scale of the interior section of the course.

The hole, yes it is the 5th, will play from an elevated tee and will be in the 140's from the main tee and 160's from the back.

Patrick: I doubt if there is any danger of rolling off into the right bunker.

We’ve been laughing a bit about the term (B)Old Macdonald
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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2008, 10:42:25 PM »
George,

I told you we just found the1960 Gordon "modernization" plans for Hackensack. When I see the size of Old Macdonald's green, it reminds me how much Gordon shrunk Banks' green...and it makes me sick...

Yes, these are really short holes, but every day is a new hole based upon  the pin position!

Come over and see the 1960 plans. And then we'll have a few stiff drinks...
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Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2008, 10:59:32 PM »
Geroge,

After seeing this hole yesterday, I told Jim Urbina it was a hole I didn't want to make a birdie on ......because if I did, it would mean my tee shot was too good .....meaning.... it robbed me of the chance to have the fun one should have on this hole.

This hole is going to be pure fun. Too bad one can only play it once during a round!

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Tim Weiman

Josh Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2008, 11:02:22 PM »
Daaaang!    (in a good way)
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ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2008, 01:39:19 AM »
George,
   Thanks for sharing. I can't wait until opening day. It is hard to tell exactly what all is going on, but it would appear to have the attribute of the Short at NGLA, where hitting the green is not an issue, but the challenge will be getting to the proper section of the green to be able to have a reasonable putt.
   Are those pinnable shelves to the right and left of you up there George?
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"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2008, 01:41:52 AM »
Thanks to George for posting the photo.  At age 78 he is our tech guy!

The funny thing is, we've built six greens and I don't think this is the biggest one.  Our Biarritz green at the eighth hole is 74 yards from front to back.

I must say that I'm very pleased with the start we've gotten out here.  The routing is probably different than I would have come up with if we hadn't been trying to apply Macdonald's ideas, so it sets us up to build some features unlike what we've built before.  We are certainly not feeling too constrained by templates.  We are just taking some great ideas and running with them.

By far the best surprise is that the contours of the ground (with the gorse cleared away for fairways) are really outstanding -- there is a great variety of stuff, from big ten-foot swells you have to hit over to reach the seventh fairway, to wrinkly undulations on the sixth and ninth fairways of the scale you'd find on The Old Course, to those big undulations in the fifth green that are pictured.

The one thing that's not a surprise is that even with a lot of rain in January, it's nice to be back in Bandon and working among friends, and you can bet that will have a positive effect on the finished product.
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Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2008, 01:44:08 AM »
When you first look at that big right bunker it doesn't seem so deep, but once you're in there the world disappears -- as does the green. Pretty quiet in there, actually. Must be about, or at least, 12-feet deep.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2008, 01:50:24 AM by Brad Klein »
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W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2008, 02:05:52 AM »
With greens that big, there must be some serious irrigation considerations.  Night watering by helicopter?  Blimp? 

Great photo.  Its hard to believe that I was at Bandon in early January and work had really just begun!  That is some serious progress.
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BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2008, 02:26:10 AM »
I am excited about the greens.  I love the features and size of the greens as it will place great emphasis on the approach and recovery shots.  It will not be acceptable to just hit the green as it will surely challenge your putting skills just to lag the ball close.  I anxiously await to see more.

Keep it up fellas!
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If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Jim Nugent

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2008, 03:38:58 AM »
The hole looks fantastic.  Like Ed, I wonder if it is similar to NGLA's short.  The pic seems a bit like the one in Ran's profile of the National. 
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2008, 03:45:49 AM »
....ditto all the previous.....but will there be any irrigation heads in the green?....and what are you using for head to head distance considering the conditions?
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

TEPaul

Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2008, 05:49:27 AM »
When I first looked at the photo I thought I was looking at a great big fairway on a short par 4 hole! 

A 17,000sf green with all those natural undulations sort of makes a mockery of GIR which is frankly a wonderful thing in itself.  ;)

TomD, by the way, and just to give you some biarritz references, the front to back green length of The Creek and Fox Chapel's biarritzes are a tad over 80 yards.
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JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Short hole at Old Macdonald:
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2008, 07:21:06 AM »
Wow!  A very nice surprise.

I cannot wait to see other holes.  Thanks for posting George.
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