[JSPayne]

Now some here may not agree, but this particular hole molds to my ideal style of golf to a TEE (golf pun intended!). Admitting as such, I bring it here for further discussion.

My personal experience: I was floored as I stepped on the tee. The beauty of the hole (forgive the somewhat poor quality of my photo....it truely doesn't do the hole justice, but it's better than nothing), the availability of a mirad of options depending solely on how good I felt or how risky I felt like being while also tying in the need to evaluate the proper strategy of the hole, and the excitement that comes with being presented with the opportunity to pull off a heroic shot. Like I said, it may not be everyone's favorite style, but I live for these kind of holes.

Take a look at the yardage guide break down first, and then my picture off the gold tees. The pictures may not accurately depict it, but the green is more receptive playing in from the left, so the main options to me seemed (1) to kind of lay up left, the safest shot by far, (2) have a go at the straight away fairway bunker and have a short pitch into the green or (3) bite off a big chunk, coil up like Tiger, and take a rip at the green. Conditions were firm and fast and a big hitter could definetely get it there. I average about 270 off the tee and only had about 40 yards out of the native area for my second. (BTW....not that it is of any consequence, but I went for the somewhat straight shot over the fairway bunker closest to the green, ended up well right of it in the native area, pitched to 15' of a front right pin position and parred the hole).

I'll withhold the name of the course for a while, unless someone recognizes it and wants to dredge up a discussion about the whole course (HINT: the course is of somewhat curious interest by several posters on this board and I'll probably post more on it at a later date)...

[Tom_Doak]

When I looked at the picture, my eye was drawn to the wiggly cart path, which I would not describe as beautiful.

As for the strategy of the hole, I guess I'd have to see the green in order to make an evaluation.  On paper, it looks like if you can carry it 260, you go straight at it, and if you can't, you go way around.  Not much of a decision for me.

[Matt_Cohn]

Good points, Tom. (As if he needed my approval...)

One thought I have is that the hole seems quite difficult for average players who can't make the carry, and pretty easy for a very good player.

[John Moore II]

I agree with Tom, not much of a decision, certainly not for me, but it allows for multiple options, which is good to see in golf holes, many today are build with only one option, and thats bland

[Dean Stokes]

JS, I like the look of the hole. It may have been a better hole if they'd brought the rh fairway back 20 yards to give another angle/option.

[Dean Stokes]

At first blush, this kindof reminds me of #11 at Barona Creek....

Where would that be. sir.

[BVince]

It looks like a good hole to me.  I don't think the average player would have to go "way" around.  If you play it up the left side before the traps, it only looks like a 150 yards or less into the green.  

For the longer hitter, you must control the long drive over the traps to avoid hitting it in the long rough.  It looks like you could bail out left, but then the bunker would make for a tricky approach shot into what appears to be a well mounded green.  

Additionally, from the upper tees, the carry over the fairway bunker is much less significant and provides a good risk/reward opportunity for the average player. 

[Rich Goodale]

Looks like a slightly less fearsome version of hte great 14th at Loch Lomond (Scotland).  Is this one also a Weiskopf/Morrish design?

Tom

Anybody can take on the carry if they play from the proper tee, no?

[Matt Waterbury]

As for the strategy of the hole, I guess I'd have to see the green in order to make an evaluation.  On paper, it looks like if you can carry it 260, you go straight at it, and if you can't, you go way around.  Not much of a decision for me.

I'm with Tom here. If there are pin positions that are effectively only possible to get close to from the left side (imagine the green tilted more away from the line of play with a back right pin, for example) then you force decisions off the tee.

As for strategy, if you carry to ball 270 but roll out less than 310, you have what looks to be a 100 yard wide fairway out there.

mjw

[Adam Clayman]

Where the heck are the framing bunkers on the out side of the dogleg? A built up bunker complex sure could've hid that cart path. 

Probably not enough penal-i-tee for some on this site. And certainly not enough water and trees for Doug  & Moe.

[Bart Bradley]

Looks like a fun hole to me...the horizon looks pretty flat...I suspect wind might play a significant role?

Bart

[Jonathan McCord]

On paper, it looks like if you can carry it 260, you go straight at it, and if you can't, you go way around.  Not much of a decision for me.

Do you always play from the tips Tom?  Playing from the wrong teeing ground is a mistake of many golfers.  When you play from the proper set of tees that are targeted to your ability, the course sets up in a way that provides all the decision-making and strategy one could ask for.  Assuming the course is properly designed!

Richard and I are on the same page!

[Andy Troeger]

The pictures may not accurately depict it, but the green is more receptive playing in from the left

The important detail that's not being given enough emphasis IMO is this little bit about the angle being best from the left. Assuming that's true, then that complicates the decision as one could still try to go the right route but risk going over the bunker, or go left and have the better angle but a much longer shot. If this is a windy site the hole could change quite a bit from day to day as well.

Lets be realistic too, how many golfers even today carry the ball 270 on command. I know I CAN do it occasionally, but its not a regular occurrence by any means.

The weakness to me as others have mentioned is that it seems like the right side once you fly the bunkers is pretty generous and maybe a little too much so. A little more penalty for a poorly executed aggressive play could help a bit, but hard to say without being there. If its a windy site the width may be necessary.

[JSPayne]

I'm enjoying the mixed reviews. However, maybe there are a few extra points I should add that would help better evaluate the hole.

1) Yes, the site is known to get very windy....it is a "links" style course in that respect.

2) Jonathan and Richard are perfectly corrent, IMO, in disputing Tom's claim. Playing from the correct tees on this course is CRUCIAL, and everyone should look again at the shot from the varying angle when given this information about the overall tee yardages: the "tips" are 7800 yards, the yellow (where I played from) 7300, the grays are 6800, the orange 6200 and the green about 5800. As I think you can see, the demanded carry over the fairway bunker becomes more realistic if the right player is playing from the correct tees to their ability.

3) The yardage guide pictures gives a slight false impression. From the yellow tees at least, if you go straight over the fairway bunker, but too long (i.e. your 250 carry runs out 50 yards....very possible given the firm and fast conditions) you'll end up in the bunker across the fairway, not on the green....and that is a nasty bunker shot. A straighter shot right at the green from those tees require much more carry.

4) A very important element I don't know why I forgot from the get-go.....the green, while undulating as in the yardage guide picture, also runs AWAY from the fairway, sloping from FR to BL. So while the green is more open and plays in better from the left having a deeper green to hit into, this also makes it pretty receptive to a long drive that might roll up, or a pitch shot, but the mid-iron shot from the lay up position may be hard to keep near any front pin positions, as it was on the day we played. One of our players ended up in the back having to putt significantly uphill over two big breaking humps.

4) Although I mentioned I played my second out of the native grass, I know the intentions at this course are to cultivate the native areas to make them more lush...especially farther away from the perimeters of the hole. You would NOT want to "go for it" and not make it as you might never find your ball. I was lucky.

[Jon Spaulding]

Sevillano Links?

The design looks to be a match of #2 at the Harvester in IA (Foster), which is uphill and shorter but the playing characteristics are the same. The green is perched at the top of the hill and highly sloped so the 2nd shot is the highlight. We could also look to #15 on the Pine Barrens course @ World Woods for a "similar" design.

From the correct tees these are both solid holes and this one looks to be as well.

[Gib Carpenter]

Is it as un-walkable as it looks? If so, to me it really doesn't matter how good the shot values/strategic options are.

[Dean Stokes]

Is it as un-walkable as it looks? If so, to me it really doesn't matter how good the shot values/strategic options are.

Gib your on the wrong thread. The one for you is "In what way are you a golf snob?"  ;)It's getting a lot of action.

[Dean Stokes]

Is it as un-walkable as it looks? If so, to me it really doesn't matter how good the shot values/strategic options are.

Gib your on the wrong thread. The one for you is "In what way are you a golf snob?" It's getting a lot of action.

[BCrosby]

Not sure I get the appeal. I'm with Tom Doak. From the back tee it's a 260 carry straight at the green. And anyone playing the course from back there (7800 yards?) almost by definition can can carry it that far. Why would you hit any other shot?

Bob   

[BVince]

Isn't that the point?  Go for it....give it a rip, but oh my....you just hit a slice and put it in the native grass.  Now you are in big trouble and will be lucky to make bogey.

I guess the problem is that you guys picture Tiger Woods hitting the tee ball.  99.9% of people who play that shot are amateurs and will have to pull off a great shot to get the reward they desire. 

[Norbert P]

It might be a more interesting hole if the fairway was shaped like a "P", with a new slash of fairway turf slashing between the bunkers angled toward the green. Or, if the fairway was"G" shaped. (I know the Supers out there won't like that second notion. Really, the hole is too short for that option, methinks.)  Or it could be "F" shaped. 

 That said, I think as it is, it would be a nice hole to discover and study. Also, to examine it without the Carry Numbers and all that stuff that makes us overknow the hole before we've even stepped onto the green.  I like yardage books but sometimes they can distract while you're playing. All those numbers take something away from the reliance on the eyes and architectural sightplay.

[John Moore II]

I like this hole, as I said before. The fact that the tee shot can roll out 50 yards would not change my play on this hole. I feel fairly sure that with a decent swing, I could land in the fairway across the bunker. I'll take a 20-50 yard pitch or even the bunker shot into the green long before I'll take the 100-125 shot from the fairway. Far more likely I, or anyone else really, will make par or birdie from inside 50 yards than from 115.

[Mark Chaplin]

Similar in some respects to the 6th at Royal Cinque Ports although the cart path is replaced by some nice dunes and the beach is off to the right. What make this hole is the green which is at the top of a 10ft bank and set 90 degrees to the tee.

Ran has a couple of decent pictures of the hole on the course description.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/deal1.html

[Tommy Williamsen]

Looks like a slightly less fearsome version of hte great 14th at Loch Lomond (Scotland).  Is this one also a Weiskopf/Morrish design?

Tom

Anybody can take on the carry if they play from the proper tee, no?

I thought of the same hole.  It is a wonderful hole and fun to play.  Hit two shots: one left and one right and don't worry about score.

I couldn't cut and paste but here is a link to Loch Lomond.  Click on the course and hole 14.

http://www.lochlomond.com/main.html

From Ran's review.

14th hole, 310 yards; A daring two shot hole, the concept for which Weiskopf and Morrish are famous for incorporating into their courses. A 245 yard carry over the marsh and creek is likely to see the tee ball bound onto the green. Otherwise, the golfer can play left into the fairway provided. The architects encourage you to 'have a go' as the approach from the safe route is none too easy with a deep greenside bunker with which to contend.

[JSPayne]

Not sure I get the appeal. I'm with Tom Doak. From the back tee it's a 260 carry straight at the green. And anyone playing the course from back there (7800 yards?) almost by definition can can carry it that far. Why would you hit any other shot?

Bob   

You know, I can make that tee shot about 75% of the time. I didn't pull it off when I played (probably because I was so excited to hit it), but should I play the hole again, I would definetley go for the lay up to the left instead.....both to see the difference in approach, but also from a competitive standpoint.

Really, if you're just playing by yourself, sure.....you'll take a rip at it. But if you're in any sort of competition (the true nature of golf right?), don't you think you'll think twice about attempting a risky drive to a tighter landing area over a safer, shorter shot that still leaves you a mid to low iron into the green? Some might not, but it's the availability of those options that really appeal to me.

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