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Matt_Ward

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2008, 01:00:50 PM »
Mike Sweeney is spot on. The NY Times could have done a bit more investigative reporting on the subject. The issue with LI National is that it makes a point in taking a big chuck of dollars out of one's pockets during the prime months. LI does have its fair shareof deeep pocket folks but the day of the $129 green fee needs a bit more thought in order to keep the register ringing.

Mike, is correct, local golfers will quickly search for more viable return and play options.

I don't doubt the impact of the economy and the factor of time that it takes to play which can generally cause many people to eschew double rounds on Saturdays and Sundays. All I can go by is the people I used to play golf with and many simply don't have the time / flexibility to commit to the hours needed for golf. They'd rather just hit balls at the range or use it for other pursuits with their families.

If golf simply milks its future singularly around core players that's not a game plan for long term success.




Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #26 on: February 21, 2008, 01:40:37 PM »
Golf is not dead and never will be. It seems there are just less and less reasons to play as often.
Anywhere worth playing is generally overpriced and overbooked (semi - private, public) or way, way overpriced, unable to get on and quiet(private)!! Anywhere inexpensive and quiet is usually not worth spending half a day at due to quality and condition. Then throw in the price of golf equipment these days - I can almost fill my car with gas for the price of a dozen new eggs!
Think I'll go to the beach again this weekend >:(
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #27 on: February 21, 2008, 04:36:17 PM »
I don't believe golf is dead, nor do I believe it is dying. .Yes the numbers are down and courses are closing, but that will happen as the "pie" is cut into thinner and thinner pieces....golf just ain't gonna look like it did 40 years ago.

As for the NY Times and the McCain article....I thought  it was a good article on influence peddling,and money buying access to politicians...plus it had a minor element of a possible sexual affair... there's a lot of voters way to young to remember the savings and loan scandal and the role that McCain played. Good for the Times to remind us that money follows power.

Mark_F

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2008, 04:38:15 PM »
I don't see how this can possibly help matters:

Quote from Ron Whitten article in Golf Digest Online.

"Bayonne was intended to be a public course -- until costs began approaching $100 million. It is now an exclusive private club, its $200,000 initiation fee catering to Wall Street executives, who can reach the course from Battery Park on the club's water taxi or from a rooftop via helicopter, in a matter of minutes."

How does a development go from a potential public course - at maybe half that cost or less to build? -  to $100 million?


Brent Hutto

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2008, 04:41:41 PM »
How does a development go from a potential public course - at maybe half that cost or less to build? -  to $100 million?

By being within water-taxi and helicopter reach of Manhattan and having great views, natch. Any talk of a reasonable-budget public course in that setting was just balloon juice.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2008, 07:12:20 PM »
Golf is on life support looking for a rare blood-type for salvation.  Until golf figures out how to attract youngsters and middle-aged soccer moms and dads the prospects are not good.  The courses in American living on the edge are going to start folding like cheat suits - their real estate value is worth more than they can earn as a functioning golf business and they will start selling out.  I see little on the plus side.  JC

Doug Ralston

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2008, 07:25:04 PM »

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2008, 07:47:05 PM »
Bill Keller and the New York Times did not have a very good day today

This story sucks and so does the McCain piece. "Lets get Real"
« Last Edit: February 21, 2008, 07:48:45 PM by M. Shea Sweeney »

Mike Sweeney

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2008, 08:10:54 PM »
I don't see how this can possibly help matters:

Quote from Ron Whitten article in Golf Digest Online.

"Bayonne was intended to be a public course -- until costs began approaching $100 million. It is now an exclusive private club, its $200,000 initiation fee catering to Wall Street executives, who can reach the course from Battery Park on the club's water taxi or from a rooftop via helicopter, in a matter of minutes."

How does a development go from a potential public course - at maybe half that cost or less to build? -  to $100 million?

This is stuff that puts me into Shivas-like rants. Simple math $200,000 X 500 paying members = $100 million. Bayonne started out at $125,000, I think, so they would need more than 500 members to break even. Ron Whitten needs to do his homework rather than believe the marketing guy. No private club is trying to get 500+ members before they break even.

johnk

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2008, 03:42:31 AM »
This is a big relief,
all along, I thought Elton John was singing "God", and now this new article clarifies it...

He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas day
When the New York Times said Golf is dead
...
And he shall be Levon
And he shall be a good man

Don Hyslop

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2008, 06:23:11 AM »
 Interesting that this year the number of golfers in Canada passed the number of people playing hockey making golf the number #1 participation sport in Canada.
  The Toronto Star has a story based on the declining number of golfers in the U.S. vs the rise of numbers in Canada.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/305899
Thompson golf holes were created to look as if they had always been there and were always meant to be there.

Anthony Butler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2008, 10:49:59 AM »
Part of the problem is that a round of golf has become less and less a "time away from care". In the greater metro area of every decent city, you will be held up at every tee on a decent public course while a bunch of hackers chop their way to a generous 125. Considering the 5+ hr round and the travel, it is at least 7 hour exercise. Or the conditions at the local muni are so poor as to take the pleasure and challenge away.

I know a couple of guys who live in Manchester-by-the-Sea and work in Boston. Their week days are a hassle because of travel, work etc.. but the weekends are good. 5 min drive to club, classic Ross course. Activities for the kids. And the members aren't too obnoxious. Those are the people who will only stop playing after their second hip operation. Apart from your golf nuts who will put up with anything to get a round in, that is your core constituency. Everyone else can peeled away from the game at some life stage.
Next!

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2008, 11:05:16 AM »
Interesting that this year the number of golfers in Canada passed the number of people playing hockey making golf the number #1 participation sport in Canada. 

Hopefully this bodes well for the future of great Canadian architecture.  We need developers to use more of our homegrown talent so the likes of Whitman and Andrew can be offered more projects and help successfully grow our #1 sport.

I don't think we're as hung up on the Brand Name Architect as those south of the border, it would be nice to see that result in more opportunities for our archie's.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2008, 11:11:15 AM »
IIRC, there was something like a net deficit of 90 courses this past year?  (90 something new ones and 180 something closures)

If these number are accurate thats a .5% decrease in golf courses, based od 17,000 courses in the US.  Not exactly what I would call death, but very much what I would call a small correction.

This gloom and doom stuff always cracks me up, especially when its rhetoric and speculative in nature instead of looking at numbers in the industry.


Richard Choi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2008, 11:27:32 AM »
Also of note: This article was the most popular e-mailed article for several days.

I guess golf is not completely dead...

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2008, 09:11:01 AM »
Also of note: This article was the most popular e-mailed article for several days.

I guess golf is not completely dead...

I noticed that, too, and wondered about it.

My guess is that, as in my own case, pretty much every fanatical golfer in the United States had it e-mailed to him (or, of course, her) several times.

After all, it's the middle of the winter in many parts of this world, and we're all at our keyboards, writing nasty notes to Bill Keller (or thinking about doing so), instead of playing golf....

"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Kyle Harris

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2008, 09:12:47 AM »
He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas Day when the New York Times said God is dead...

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2008, 09:13:34 AM »
Also of note: This article was the most popular e-mailed article for several days.

I guess golf is not completely dead...

I noticed that, too, and wondered about it.

My guess is that, as in my own case, pretty much every fanatical golfer in the United States had it e-mailed to him (or, of course, her) several times.

After all, it's the middle of the winter in many parts of this world, and we're all at our keyboards, writing nasty notes to Bill Keller (or thinking about doing so), instead of playing golf....



My wife pointed that fact out to me yesterday.  Probably not a good thing. 

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2008, 09:16:36 AM »
He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas Day when the New York Times said God is dead...



As you can see, it was Time magazine that wondered: "Is God Dead?"

The New York Times -- quoting anonymous sources -- merely confirmed that He* was.

* Or, of course, She.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 09:28:33 AM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Kyle Harris

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2008, 09:21:00 AM »
He was born a pauper to a pawn on a Christmas Day when the New York Times said God is dead...



As you can see, it was Time magazine that wondered: "Is God Dead?"

The New York Times -- quoting anonymous sources -- merely confirmed that He was.

I didn't read the thread to see that two others made the Elton John reference so I'm a bit late to the party.

Anyone in Tampa should go to Terrace Hill Golf Course on Bullard Parkway around 7:30 PM on a Friday Night and see what golf can use to survive.

A 9 hole Par 30 with lights of about 1600 yards where you can hit every club in your bag...

Some good greens that get slow in the evening dew but would be amazingly fun when quick, especially on the fall away greens that litter the course. I've been there 3 times this week and have been able to play 9 in a little over an hour.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2008, 09:51:39 AM »
1. The Times calls golf "the leisure activity most closely associated with corporate success in America."

Whether that's literally true, or not -- the old gray Times offers no evidence that it is; not even a quotation from a source speaking on condition of anonymity so as not to offend golfers or corporate succeeders -- there's surely an element of "truthiness" in it.

Golf IS associated, in many minds, with corporate success.

This has always struck me as a bad thing, in the long run, for everyone who loves the game.

2. My daughter, a junior in high school, is entering her fourth season on the high school's girls' varsity. She is one of three good players -- girls who consistently shoot in the mid-80s to low-90s. They would have been winning a lot of matches the past couple of years, except that the team's fourth-best score has been in the 105-110 range. So they've been losing pretty consistently -- and spend the winters hoping that a fourth good player will materialize, somehow.

I was talking to her recently and suggested that she talk to a girl she knows who is the star of the girls' hockey team. Really good athlete. Outstanding hand-eye coordination. Would be a natural golfer. Maybe we could get her interested?

My daughter approached her at school.

The other girl's response: "I don't even think golf's a sport."

I'm guessing she spoke for a lot of young people.

-----------------------------

Seems to me that, if golf is to thrive -- real golf, not the corporate-outing-type golf that, with any luck, really is in decline -- those who love the game must address both of my points.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Ralston

Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2008, 11:06:03 AM »
1. The Times calls golf "the leisure activity most closely associated with corporate success in America."

Whether that's literally true, or not -- the old gray Times offers no evidence that it is; not even a quotation from a source speaking on condition of anonymity so as not to offend golfers or corporate succeeders -- there's surely an element of "truthiness" in it.

Golf IS associated, in many minds, with corporate success.

This has always struck me as a bad thing, in the long run, for everyone who loves the game.

2. My daughter, a junior in high school, is entering her fourth season on the high school's girls' varsity. She is one of three good players -- girls who consistently shoot in the mid-80s to low-90s. They would have been winning a lot of matches the past couple of years, except that the team's fourth-best score has been in the 105-110 range. So they've been losing pretty consistently -- and spend the winters hoping that a fourth good player will materialize, somehow.

I was talking to her recently and suggested that she talk to a girl she knows who is the star of the girls' hockey team. Really good athlete. Outstanding hand-eye coordination. Would be a natural golfer. Maybe we could get her interested?

My daughter approached her at school.

The other girl's response: "I don't even think golf's a sport."

I'm guessing she spoke for a lot of young people.

-----------------------------

Seems to me that, if golf is to thrive -- real golf, not the corporate-outing-type golf that, with any luck, really is in decline -- those who love the game must address both of my points.

I am disturbed by your posting. This may classify me as a non-atheletic wimp, but I still think I need to comment.

You and you daughter's search for a player to take the girl's place who can only shoot 105-110 makes me a bit queasy. Might you be emphasizing "Win! Win! Win!" a little much, if you got involved in that? Must the girl who ONLY shoots 110 be told to "sit down, we want to win!"? Is it really that important?

Just an observation of my own, but how about a slightly different approach. Take you daughter to someplace where golf is played, but the site is beautiful. Talk to her of golf as a recreational activity, to be appreciated in all aspects, not just in competition.

My personal suspicion is that people who see golf as more than a competitive sporting event will be more likely to play it all their lives, and FAR more likely to convince friends to do likewise.

But that's just me.

As for corporate succes, just refer them to me. I earn about $20k helping disabled people carry on as close to normal lives as I can imagine for them. It is a job I love and would not trade, but certainly, by American standards, not exactly a corporate success. Yet I venture few love golf and golf courses more than I.

Golf offers much to people of more modest means. If nothing more, it offers excercise in an environment not made up of concrete, cars, and canned music. I am glad for the 'Golden Age of Golf Architecture', that good courses became available to people with less. I hope it continues, though I fear NYT may be correct. The money to invest in public courses is decreasing, and return on investment less certain.  We shall see.

Doug

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2008, 11:14:09 AM »
Doug,

Interesting post...I am not disagreeing with it so much as offering my perspective...In my opinion, if not for competition golf would be dead.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2008, 12:23:55 PM »
1. The Times calls golf "the leisure activity most closely associated with corporate success in America."

Whether that's literally true, or not -- the old gray Times offers no evidence that it is; not even a quotation from a source speaking on condition of anonymity so as not to offend golfers or corporate succeeders -- there's surely an element of "truthiness" in it.

Golf IS associated, in many minds, with corporate success.

This has always struck me as a bad thing, in the long run, for everyone who loves the game.

2. My daughter, a junior in high school, is entering her fourth season on the high school's girls' varsity. She is one of three good players -- girls who consistently shoot in the mid-80s to low-90s. They would have been winning a lot of matches the past couple of years, except that the team's fourth-best score has been in the 105-110 range. So they've been losing pretty consistently -- and spend the winters hoping that a fourth good player will materialize, somehow.

I was talking to her recently and suggested that she talk to a girl she knows who is the star of the girls' hockey team. Really good athlete. Outstanding hand-eye coordination. Would be a natural golfer. Maybe we could get her interested?

My daughter approached her at school.

The other girl's response: "I don't even think golf's a sport."

I'm guessing she spoke for a lot of young people.

-----------------------------

Seems to me that, if golf is to thrive -- real golf, not the corporate-outing-type golf that, with any luck, really is in decline -- those who love the game must address both of my points.


You and you daughter's search for a player to take the girl's place who can only shoot 105-110 makes me a bit queasy. Might you be emphasizing "Win! Win! Win!" a little much, if you got involved in that?

No. I have never emphasized WIN! WIN! WIN! Never.

But, hey, it's more fun to win, in a competitive activity, than to lose. If we can't agree on that, we are not going to agree on anything.

Must the girl who ONLY shoots 110 be told to "sit down, we want to win!"? Is it really that important?


No, and no. And she won't be told to sit down. Every girl who comes out for golf plays in matches, at Developmental, Junior Varsity or Varsity level. I believe the Varsity usually plays six girls, plus two alternates, with the best four scores counting in the team score.


Just an observation of my own, but how about a slightly different approach. Take you daughter to someplace where golf is played, but the site is beautiful. Talk to her of golf as a recreational activity, to be appreciated in all aspects, not just in competition.

Doug -- I've done that many, many times. Ask me what I love about golf, and competition would be no higher than third or fourth. (It might not be in the top five.) Ask my daughter, and you'll learn the same thing about her.

As for corporate succes, just refer them to me. I earn about $20k helping disabled people carry on as close to normal lives as I can imagine for them. It is a job I love and would not trade, but certainly, by American standards, not exactly a corporate success. Yet I venture few love golf and golf courses more than I.

My point was very simply this: There's an association (not necessarily an equivalency), in MANY minds, between golf and business -- and I personally think that's bad, in the long run, for golf ... which should be loved for itself, and not for any connection with business, or success therein.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2008, 12:35:50 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NY Times says golf is dead
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2008, 12:56:12 PM »
Doug,

If Dan had been writing about a small-town Indiana basketball team with four decent-to-good players, and one inept fifth starter who stood between the team and a chance to make a post-season run, would you still be critical of the team's efforts to scour the halls for one more kid who could actually dribble, pass and shoot?
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice