Rank Crail, Elie, Levin and Lundin?

[Sean_A]

For me, Elie is so far in front that the four aren't comparable.  Crail, Lundin and Leven are more or less in the same class.  I would probably take Crail over the others because of the views, but it has just as many if not more very good holes.  Bottom line, the one of the four I am really interested in seeing again is Elie...these others are good enough golf, but really trip fillers.

Ciao

Sean,

Would you change this after Friday's visit to Lundin and Leven?  I know I would now reverse the two in my ranking.

Mark

Mark

I haven't properly sorted it out in my head yet. I still don't think any of the three seriously challenge Elie for the top spot. Regardless, Leven has taken a big leap in my estimation. It may have two All - Scotland candidates in 14 and 18...for sure 14. I have no clue what CBM was doing messing around with Lundin's 16th as a template hole. Leven's 14th is much the superior hole and the best hole of the would be original 18.  My brain needs seeing to for not remembering this hole.

Leven is proper links golf.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

I agree with most of that, Sean.  Though I think 14 may be the best hole on the course, rather than 18.  That green site!  I can't work out why I didn't rate Leven higher.  Perhaps I hadn't seen it in such sporty condition. Proof that how a course plays beats how it looks hands down.

[Scott Warren]

Mark and Sean,


Leven has become my go-to example of what “great links conditoning” means.


Yes, the fairways could have been in a bit better condition, but the absolute consideration is whether the course is bouncy and the fairways and greens of similar pace.


The links experience depends on the latter, the former is just nice to have — and at many courses the pursuit of those surfaces lessens the firmness factor.

[Sean_A]

Mark and Sean,

Leven has become my go-to example of what “great links conditoning” means.

Yes, the fairways could have been in a bit better condition, but the absolute consideration is whether the course is bouncy and the fairways and greens of similar pace.

The links experience depends on the latter, the former is just nice to have — and at many courses the pursuit of those surfaces lessens the firmness factor.

Scott

No, I don't think Leven was close to being in good nick, although I wouldn't mind at all if fairways in general were not cut quite so close as has seemingly become the norm.  The greens were sluggish and the fairways very hairy and patchy with dead spots.  On the flip side, the rough was in good order.  You could lose a ball or have a good lie in about equal measure.  And yes, the greens and fairways were roughly on the same keel regards firmness.  I think the issue for me is when a course charges £80 normal fee, the conditioning has to be better than Leven gave us. If the green fee was £40ish or so quid as a normal charge than I have much less of a problem. 

Mark...for sure 14 is a better hole than 18...hence All-Scotland candidate.

Ciao

[Marty Bonnar]

Leven 14. Simply awesome.





Cheers,
F.

[Mark Pearce]

SEan,


"the greens were sluggish"?  Really?  I didn't think they were appreciably lower than Lundin or the New course.  And whilst the fairways were scruffy I didn't get a bad lie.  There were dead spots (which weren't at St Andrews, Lundin or Elie but I think that reflected budgets available for maintenance.  The course was noticeably firmer than the others we played, which was a bonus

[Sean_A]

SEan,

"the greens were sluggish"?  Really?  I didn't think they were appreciably lower than Lundin or the New course.  And whilst the fairways were scruffy I didn't get a bad lie.  There were dead spots (which weren't at St Andrews, Lundin or Elie but I think that reflected budgets available for maintenance.  The course was noticeably firmer than the others we played, which was a bonus

Well, I guess we disagree. I would be fine with Leven's conditioning if it was a 30 quid course. That said, I suspect the fairways are still suffering from last summer's drought, hence their shabby state. However, I wouldn't mind if fairways were cut a bit higher. Who knows, maybe there wouldn't have been so much wide spread issues if this was the case.

Wasn't it clear The Links Trust could spend their way thru weather issues? Man, the greens were slow, but the course was in very good nick.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

SEan,

"the greens were sluggish"?  Really?  I didn't think they were appreciably lower than Lundin or the New course.  And whilst the fairways were scruffy I didn't get a bad lie.  There were dead spots (which weren't at St Andrews, Lundin or Elie but I think that reflected budgets available for maintenance.  The course was noticeably firmer than the others we played, which was a bonus

Well, I guess we disagree. I would be fine with Leven's conditioning if it was a 30 quid course. That said, I suspect the fairways are still suffering from last summer's drought, hence their shabby state. However, I wouldn't mind if fairways were cut a bit higher. Who knows, maybe there wouldn't have been so much wide spread issues if this was the case.

Wasn't it clear The Links Trust could spend their way thru weather issues? Man, the greens were slow, but the course was in very good nick.

Ciao

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here, Sean,  the Links Trust has no say over Elie bur the greens were no quicker than Leven.  The fairways were scruffy at Leven bit did you get a lie that spoiled your next shot?  You're the last person I'd expect to be over influeuenced by the appearance of the course but I can't he[size=78%]lp thinking that's what has happened here.[/size]

[Sean_A]

Yes, I did have down lies that weren't in divots. The issue comes down to Leven wasn't in decent nick. We can get wishy washy about it, but that's the truth.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

I suspect Sean just copped a few dud lies that we didn’t get, Mark. There’s no other logical explanation for the differing takeaways re the condition.


I got pretty decent lies in the fairways the whole way around and thought the greens ran at a similar clip to Elie and Lundin. Certainly the putts from the RHS on 9, past the hole on 18 and back to the pin from long on 7 were all speedy.


I think we all have played enough links to judge condition on more than what it looks like, so I assume Sean just got a rougher go of the conditions than us.

[Scott Warren]

It does illustrate how clubs can never really “win” re conditioning that three blokes who all like similar stuff and are all reasonably experienced with links golf can be so split on their appraisal of a course’s presentation.

[Sean_A]

I suspect Sean just copped a few dud lies that we didn’t get, Mark. There’s no other logical explanation for the differing takeaways re the condition.

I got pretty decent lies in the fairways the whole way around and thought the greens ran at a similar clip to Elie and Lundin. Certainly the putts from the RHS on 9, past the hole on 18 and back to the pin from long on 7 were all speedy.

I think we all have played enough links to judge condition on more than what it looks like, so I assume Sean just got a rougher go of the conditions than us.

Scott

I did get a few bad lies, but that is my fault as I didn't realize the course was STILL on preferred lies.  Anytime a course is on PL in late May there is an issue, but its the smart thing to do. If I would have known PL was play I would have moved balls to the rough if within 5-7 yards....I do it at Burnham all the time.  There is zero point in banging up suffering fairways for a friendly game.  I wish this pratice was commonplace because the day is coming when a significant percentage of links will be on winter mats. 

For me, paying a twilight rate of £50 for fairways which a £25 course can provide doesn't represent a course in good nick.  We all take things as we see them.  I played a course today that was PL.  Courses really are suffering for the last year's drought.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

Leven definitely had some fairway conditioning problems a week and a half ago. Not all fairways, but a few were pretty rough.

[Jon Wiggett]

For me, paying a twilight rate of £50 for fairways which a £25 course can provide doesn't represent a course in good nick.  We all take things as we see them.  I played a course today that was PL.  Courses really are suffering for the last year's drought.

Ciao

Sean,


is it fair to say that your main beef is that they were over charging for the conditions on offer? If the greenfee had been £25 then you would have felt the course offered value for money?


I think there are far too many courses asking over the odds these past ten years.


Jon

[Sean_A]

For me, paying a twilight rate of £50 for fairways which a £25 course can provide doesn't represent a course in good nick.  We all take things as we see them.  I played a course today that was PL.  Courses really are suffering for the last year's drought.

Ciao

Sean,

is it fair to say that your main beef is that they were over charging for the conditions on offer? If the greenfee had been £25 then you would have felt the course offered value for money?

I think there are far too many courses asking over the odds these past ten years.

Jon

For sure.  Charge £25 and I am not overly fussed.  To think that if we teed off an hour two prior to when we did the fee was £80.  That is stiff fee if the course is in good nick.  Fife is a high rent district.

Ciao