Are under the table payments a dirty secret in architecture?

[Joel_Stewart]

I have found that most modern architects are dirty and take money under the table.  Restoration architects on the other hand often times contribute their fees to charity and other worthy causes and would never consider taking more.

KBM:  Thanks for the reference to the old thread.  Obviously it hit a nerve so you shoot the messenger.  No wonder you don't get restoration jobs, you lack experience and have a bad attitude.

John Gosselin:  Good post. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

If I ever get the chance I hope some day to shake the hand of Ron Whitten for having the courage to introduce ethics into this difficult industry.  His decision to not allow Erin Hills to be considered for the Golf Digest Greatest lists because of his involvement on the design team shone a light I wish more could follow.

John,

Ron is an ethical guy. He won't accept even free lunches from gca'a and courses to avoid any hint of persuasion.

However, it was GD's decision to keep his courses out of their lists.  How much credit can he be given for alerting a client to that?  And, while  I understand your point, I disagree that he is introducing ethics to the profession.

[Bob_Huntley]

I have found that most modern architects are dirty and take money under the table.  Restoration architects on the other hand often times contribute their fees to charity and other worthy causes and would never consider taking more.

KBM:  Thanks for the reference to the old thread.  Obviously it hit a nerve so you shoot the messenger.  No wonder you don't get restoration jobs, you lack experience and have a bad attitude.

John Gosselin:  Good post. 

Joel Stewart,

I cannot believe what you just wrote. It's disgusting. What animus exists between the two of you that requires such an offensive post?

Bob

[Steve Lapper]

Ms. Moran:

   Wonderful post. Please know that those of us who were fortunate enough to know and work with Kelly have joined to make a contribution to the Texans for a Gentler & Kinder Society, a very small and underfunded organization that accurately reflected his views outside his occupation.

   On a more serious note, I've worked with and known KBM for a a number of years now and I find him among the most experienced, and positive-minded people I've ever had the pleasure to know. He's ethical and decent, perhaps to a flaw. Joel, I do believe you've opened up a bit of Pandora's Box with your baited question and instead of vocalizing the animus of your last post, you might want to be appreciative of the experience and truth that Kelly brings to this forum. Knowing you both, I'd suggest an apology might be in order.

Steve
   

[Joe Hancock]

Ms. Moran,

At the appropriate time, would you please forward a picture or two of yourself.

Thank you.

[HamiltonBHearst]

I suspect KBM is thought of very highly by the members at Rock Spring (NJ) who experienced the work of another noted restoration guy and KBM is/was in the process of fixing the mess. 

Please note: the "before" pictures were only a year or two after the other "restoration" guy finished.

http://www.kellyblakemoran.com/rock%20spring%20blog.html

I would highly recommend him for work at any of my clubs

[Jay Flemma]

I'll echo the excellent work I saw from Kelly at Rock Spring as well.

Rock band "Hearts that Hate" announces that they will organize "Kellypalooza," a musical celebration and tribute event commemorating the life of a great Texan!  Also on the playbill are post-punk laptop star MC Lars, Army of Freshmen (who are neither an army, nor freshman), and Saving Jane.

Not just a concert, the all-day experience will feature a U Oklahoma pinata smashing contest, mechanical bull riding, and a dunking machine in which patrons can send Jim Engh, Tom Doak, Brian Silva and other archies plunging into freezing cold water.  ***calling Ian Andrew!  calling Ian Andrew!...can you please Greek that pic of Doak on the bulldozer to Doak on a dunking machine?***

A tearful Jim Engh offered this fine remembrance of his fallen friend, "I can think of no better way to honor Kelly's memory than by having a big festival of screamo bands.  Kelly, when my son Brian and I are crowd surfing in the mosh pit during "The Last Rock Show" that tear I shed will be for you.  GONE BUT NOT FORGOTTEN!"

[james soper]

"reports of kelly blake moran's demise have been greatly exaggerated."

[Joe Hancock]

"reports of kelly blake moran's demise have been greatly exaggerated".

Don't tell his wife......we're on for tomorrow night.....

[Tim Nugent]

I can see that this thread has deterioated into babble - sorry Jay, I know you're just trying to be clever.  I think everyone has missed the point.  We all get paid for our services. It's call it a fee.  We have the freedom to set it. Our work is not bid out. So a "kick-back" would be rather redundant  If I need more for a job, I'll ask for more. If the client wants someone cheaper - god knows they are out there - then he/they probably would want to cut corners in other areas once the project got started or worse, pull the "I'm pretendind I didn't get your last invoice so sue me" trick.  Better knowing up front.  As dad used to say, "some of the best jobs turned out to be the ones I didn't get".
As for contractors, as Jeff stated this is a small world and word gets around (and stays around for decades) so no one I have ever been involved with has been unethical.  As architects, we want the best match between the client, scope of work, and contractor.  We will make suggestions to the client which contractors we think would fit the job - as each have strengths and weaknesses.  Since we are the ones who have worked with these guys over the years, it is this knowledge that we are getting paid for.
 Just remeber all the assumptiions that were thrown about pertaining to the Merion work.
When you build a course, you spend a year or 2 interacting with a contractor. one of 2 things usually happens. It either is a good job or a bad job.  A low bid might look good to an owner up front but not at the end.  Whereas the guy who was just a bit higher would have done a better job with less headaches and expenses for all.
In our business, the phase "trust me" is used alot. Once that trust is broken, it can't be repaired. The architact has a fiduciary duty to the client.  It is part of his job to see that he get's what he is paying for.
Anthony might know of some instance where this wasn't the case but if so, it is an aberation, not the norm.  Also, as Jeff will tell you, if a member af the ASGCA is found to be unethical, he will be told that his presence is no longer desired.

[Jay Flemma]

No offense taken, Tim.  The thread started moving in a sinister direction and I just wanted to lighten the proceedings a bit...