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Gib Carpenter

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Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« on: February 19, 2008, 04:16:22 PM »
Greeting everyone...

Since Ran was good enough to post my essay "A Cry for the Golf Course"
as an In My Opinion piece in November there have been some notable developments at Philly Cricket, and I thought I'd take a moment to a) bring the GCA community up to date and b) seek members' input, observations, experience and advice moving forward.

It has been quite a ride. My essay was really born more out of frustration than hope that anything could actually be accomplished at PCC...too many years of beating my head against the wall had left me despairing that the powers that be at the Club  would ever "get it".
 
However, the response has been surprisingly strong and 100% positive....I have received well over 100 emails both from within the club and from people all over. - From just across the street (Sunnybrook GC) to as distant as Perth, Australia - and all with some variation on the the same story: "we had the same issue at our club...much hand-wringing and debate...finally bit the bullet on tree removal and everyone is thrilled...keep the faith!"

Many GCA members reached out with words of encouragement and advice and I would be remiss if I failed to thank Philip Young for sharing his wealth of knowledge as relates to all things Tillinghast, and also Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison, both of whom took time out of their schedules to meet with me and other PC members in person to offer their help and insight.

In addition, an ad hoc PCC member group conducted a letter-writing campaign which resulted in over 100 members sending signed letters to the Board, Golf and Grounds Committees in support of tree removal and general investment in our Tillinghast course....and I think it is finally making a difference.
 
In December the Club's newly formed Long Range Planning Committee issued an RFP for the purpose of hiring a qualified golf course architect to prepare a comprehensive master plan for the Flourtown course (trees, bunkers, greens, etc.)...While I wasn't asked to participate on the Committee,  it is my understanding that respondents have been reduced to a "short list" and that an architect will be selected in the next month or so. I think this is great. At the club and Committee level the "tree issue" is just too emotional and devisive. I believe it is only under the guidance of a professional architect that the necessary tree work will ever be done. 
 
There has been some positive immediate benefit as well. Also in December the club's grounds committee approved a list of 54 trees to be removed from the course this winter. Granted, many are dead/dying trees which would have been removed anyway, and 54 trees barely scratches the surface of the work that needs to be done, but its a step in the right direction.

Additionally several large "impact" trees have been removed at the problematic 5th, 8th and 18th greens...hopefully enough so that he Club can start to see reap the benefit of the XGD drainage work which was done last winter at these greens.

Lastly, the club did an inventory of the trees on the golf course, counting the number of "interior" (i.e. in play) trees. The figure that was arrived at was 900 trees or 50 per hole. I think that some folks thought this number was low given the number of trees that one hears have been removed at other courses. To satisfy my own curiosity I went out and counted them for myself and confirmed that the number was indeed correct. My take is that one needs to consider that the course ws built on cleared farmland (rather than cut from a wooded area) meaning that every tree out there was planted by the club and most are now quite large. A look at the 1938 aerials in my essay shows that in 1938 (16 years after opening) the course contained somewhere onthe order of 200-300 trees. I also have come up with some new aerials form the late 1930's and 1950 which I will post in this thread. 

Question for the DG: Given the old aerials as comapred to the 2007 aerials) what density of mature trees in 2008 do you think would most likely fit Tillinghast's vision for this property?

Thanks again GCA!
GCA/AOK

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 04:17:13 PM »
2007 aerieal
GCA/AOK

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 04:18:01 PM »
1937
GCA/AOK

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2008, 04:18:44 PM »
1938
GCA/AOK

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 04:19:29 PM »
1950
GCA/AOK

Greg Krueger

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 04:24:59 PM »
Gib, I actually first read your essay yesterday and thought it was facsinating! Looks like the club is headed in the right direction!! Thanks
for the essay and congrats!!!!

David Stamm

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 04:28:23 PM »
Congrats to you and the club, Gib. This sounds very exciting, Please keep us posted on the progress. It's so good to see headway being made at a venerable club like PCC.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2008, 04:45:02 PM »
Original Bunkering - Holes 7, 4 & 5 (1938)
GCA/AOK

Jay Flemma

Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 04:55:56 PM »
That's outstanding news, a hearty congratulations.

Also, doesn't that crossbunker look fantastic ion that old aerial?!

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2008, 05:00:02 PM »
Last Pic - Here's a look at the original bunkering for the "dueling par 3's" nos. 3 & 10   (with apologies to SFGC)
GCA/AOK

David Druzisky

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 05:07:32 PM »
Gib,

The architect that gets hired is going to have an interesting time with this and will need to pull in more historical perpective into the decission making process.  Even in the older photos some of the trees are not in great locations it seems.  Hard to say if Tilly ever envisioned trees there at all.

Who supervised the eraly tree planting?

Congrats on the progress.  Sometimes a little spark can light a fire.

mike_malone

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 05:12:59 PM »
 Gib,

    That photo of the side-by-side par threes shows the limitations of photos for total analysis. I believe #3 is downhill somewhat and #10 is uphill. If I'm correct on that it makes them play quite differently even though they look similar. I guess that is why the uphill green is larger than the downhill one. #10 is fun. Do they keep a count on the number of times the clubhouse gets wacked?

 BTW , good luck with the tree removal, but remember that no good deed goes unpunished.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 05:17:44 PM by michael_malone »
AKA Mayday

JESII

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2008, 05:38:33 PM »
Mayday,

If anything, there is under 5 feet elevation change in that area and #10 would be the one going down the hill...

I can say, I've got two or three good licks in on the clubhouse in my times playing there.

mike_malone

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2008, 05:42:48 PM »
 I guess that shows how design deceives. The fronting bunker on #10 sure makes it feel like it is uphill versus #3.
AKA Mayday

JESII

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2008, 05:44:33 PM »
Look at that little tree ahead and to the right of the 10th tee...I wonder if that is the monster that virtually forces a slice off of the parking lot today (or at least a few years ago when I was last there)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2008, 08:14:46 PM »
Gib,

Congratulations on some very encouraging developments.  It would be wonderful to see a sensitive architect really open it up and let it shine...the course certainly deserves it.   

I have to wonder if there wasn't a sale on pine trees in the Philly area in 1938-39, because that's when a whole bunch of useless pine weeds were planted in the Cobb's Creek aerials, as well.    :P ::) ;)

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2008, 10:38:44 AM »
Gib,

Even in the older photos some of the trees are not in great locations it seems.  Hard to say if Tilly ever envisioned trees there at all.

Who supervised the eraly tree planting?


Hey David...Bingo.

I agree  that the more you look at the 1938 aerials the less likely it seems that Tillinghast (1922) or Flynn (1928) could conceivably have had  anything to do with the planting of a great many of them. I speak specifically of the many (very young) trees which are visible in the below aerial and which were planted very close to fairways and in a staight line....It really begs the question, If Tillinghast didn't oversee the planting of these trees did he instead envision the course as mainly open with some groupings of trees? Did he perhaps give instructions or guidelines for tree planting which were lost or ignored? Did he simply build the course and leave tree planting entirely up to the Club?

Beats me, but looking at the first generation of planting visible in the old photos, it's easy to imagine how things ended up as they did. It just wouldn't look "right" as these straight lines of trees marching down the sides of each fairway matured....I guess the "fix" was to plant another row...and another...until every square foot of the property was wooded *sigh*   

Does anyone have aerials of other Tillinghast courses that were built on cleared farmaland? It would be neat to see how these courses evolved...early/matured/restored, etc. Perhaps Balt CC (Five Farms)?

GCA/AOK

TEPaul

Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2008, 11:13:31 AM »
Gib:

900 trees does seem low for a course like PCC but there could be some logical explanations for that such as trees on the borders of many of your holes are either on the club's property but off that course or are bordered by trees on property that you don't own (like #6 and maybe #15 and such).

In my opinion, if the club has nothing at all on tree planting from Tillinghast (or Flynn) it's probably pretty fruitless to guess with any real credibility. In other words, it's real easy for members who aren't for tree removal to challenge that reason for tree removal, not to even mention the fact that perhaps Tillie and certainly Flynn were advocates for the use of trees on courses under various circumstances and for various reasons. I'm not aware that Tillinghast ever actually came up with a distinct tree plan for one of his courses but maybe Phil Young is. Flynn did come up with tree plans for a few of his courses and he also wrote about the use of trees on courses in something of a general sense.

As I think I mentioned to you when I was over there with you and Mark probably the best couple of ways to identify trees on the course for removal is 1/ trees that are currently detrimental to healthy turf and 2/ trees that are actually blocking golfers' visibility of some of the older really magnificent looking trees you have on that course.

By the way, we had a profession tree inventory done for Gulph Mills and the quantity is about the same as yours.

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2008, 11:39:08 AM »
Gib:

the best couple of ways to identify trees on the course for removal is 1/ trees that are currently detrimental to healthy turf and 2/ trees that are actually blocking golfers' visibility of some of the older really magnificent looking trees you have on that course.


Hi Tom,

Excellent advice...I couldn't agree more that at the Club level it is best to keep the discussion to trees' impact on turfgrass health, etc...any "armchair architecting" or speculation as to Tillinghast's vision is purely out of my own personal curiousity...Thanks!

-Gib
GCA/AOK

Paul Sinclair

Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2008, 11:52:19 AM »
Gib,

Any information available on the "short list" of architects being considered for the Flourtown job? May be confidential but I thought I'd ask in case it is not being closely held.

mike_malone

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2008, 11:58:10 AM »
 I doubt you will find a Flynn plan for trees that recommended planting them along a line parallel to the fairway in the likely landing area or near the greens.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2008, 12:02:58 PM »
Paul:

All things being equal with architects  ???, my advice for them would be to get one of two local guys because local guys can get over there more often and more easily.

I'll give them a hint---eg Hanse and Prichard are local guys!    ;)

I wouldn't presume to say where either Hanse or Prichard are coming from on the subject of trees on courses (or would I?) but having spent a lot of time on sites with both of them I'm pretty sure I've heard an audible low squeal from trees when either of those two step on the course.

Gib Carpenter

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2008, 12:31:43 PM »
Paul- No information at this time..Best, Gib
GCA/AOK

D_Malley

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Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2008, 01:15:21 PM »
Gib
great to hear that there is some movement on this issue.  i would love to see some of the double hazard situations addressed.  hope all is well with you.

dan

TEPaul

Re: Update & THANKS GCA - Philly Cricket Tree Removal
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2008, 01:29:35 PM »
Gib:

They didn't put you on that committee to look into this further?

That, in my mind, is just nuts!

How about if we get together again and come up with a plan for some good old fashioned political nose-counting as well as Wayne and my solution of just taking the naysayers out to a diner on a Friday night and putting them on the inside of the booth and beating the shit out of them if they even look like they're trying to disagree with tree removal?

"Dear, why do you have mashed potatoes in your ears and peas in your nose?"

"Oh, honey, it's a long story but please don't mention trees to me anytime soon, OK?"
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 01:32:06 PM by TEPaul »

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