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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Simplifying the playing rules
« on: February 19, 2008, 12:35:25 PM »
Another thread where it was suggested that vegitation might be classed as a hazard got me to thinking that the playing rules have become more and more complicated over the years.

What rules could be left out? or how could they be altered to help make things easier?

I would suggest ditching all the rules except lost ball and unplayable ball. Also, a return to matchplay as the main type (no fourball single strokeplay) for the speed.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 01:27:25 PM »
Rule #1 - You are allowed to play only one ball per hole. You must finish with the ball that you start with. If you do not for any reason, it is a triple bogey.

#2 - You are only allowed to touch a ball to place it on a tee on the tee box and after it is in the hole or your opponent concedes in match ply. In a nutshell, play it as it lies, this includes the green.

#3 - The maximum score on any hole is triple bogey. In professional tournaments, it is double bogey. When you hit that many shots, pick up the ball and walk to the next hole.

#4 - In extreme weather conditions, The Committee may allow the field to lift and place their ball on fairways and greens.

The above would create faster play, would be more equitable for those of us who are not looking to figure out the rules as they stand, and it would create more interesting recovery shots since triple/double is the max.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 01:33:10 PM »
Mike:

Bravo.  Your rules are a devilishly clever way to eliminate the cheater line....as if often the case, what's not said is usually more important than what's said...  ;D 

If Shivas is on my side something must be wrong with my theory!  :D

Brent Hutto

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2008, 01:34:00 PM »
For match play, few Rules are really "necessary". I've played matches with the only Rule being that you can not touch the ball from the time it is teed up until it is either holed out or the hole is conceded. The only penalty for breaking the Rule is loss of hole. An occasional match like this serves as a valuable perspective-cleaner-upper regarding the Rules and the game in general.

Now obviously this approach implies a few other obvious principles under which the match must the played. But it is totally refreshing to engage in a game where any situation that arises results in a simple decision tree. If an occurance results in your being able to play the ball without touching it, then play it as it lies. If you can't do that, you lose the hole. No big deal.

In an accomodation to the greenskeeper we usually allow exactly one exception to the Rule. If requested by your opponent you must lift your ball from the putting surface without cleaning it long enough for your opponent to play his putt. Stymies are incompatible with modern expectations of putting-surface quality.

Steve Kline

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 01:34:59 PM »
As Feherty wrote in one of his books - play the course as it is and the ball as it lies. Don't even need a page for that rule book. Of course it doesn't work so well for stroke play - which might be good thing.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 01:37:48 PM »
I do have a few questions, though:

As I see it, your rules would essentially eliminate golf in Florida as we know it.

Also, I think it would eliminate all C flights and up everywhere in the world.

How could two high handicappers in Florida possibly play a match under these rules?



Please explain the Florida comment, I don't understand.

If reference to the C flights, I am okay with that especially when theyare playing in front of me!

John Kavanaugh

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 01:38:34 PM »
The only reason our rule book is as thick as it is is because golfers are cheaters at heart.  Quinney knows he can not tuck a glove or towel under his arm pit so he buys big shirts and tucks his sleeve, now we need another rule.  We can not escape the big book getting bigger as the cheats never quit thinking when they should be out hitting balls.  Kind like the dream union contract that says I will pay you fair and you will work hard.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2008, 01:40:42 PM »
All water should be stroke and distance or loss of hole.  Yellow and red stake cheating is unavoidable in mixed company.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 01:43:26 PM »
Water or OB is an immediate triple....my unscientific unofficial count indicates that at least 50% of shots in Florida face one predicament or the other...

Understood now. Yep, don't hit it there!

New benefit, our architecture buddies get new remodeling work to compensate for the new rules.

Brent Hutto

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2008, 01:43:37 PM »
John,

All of that presupposes that tucking something under your arm produces an advantage. If you're not improving your lie, then 99% of the stuff that is "cheating" because it's against the Rules could just as easily be ignored.

The vast majority of golf's rulebook arises from two things. A stroke play mentality and a misguided belief in fairness and predictability.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 01:45:51 PM »
John,

All of that presupposes that tucking something under your arm produces an advantage. If you're not improving your lie, then 99% of the stuff that is "cheating" because it's against the Rules could just as easily be ignored.

The vast majority of golf's rulebook arises from two things. A stroke play mentality and a misguided belief in fairness and predictability.

So you are saying that we should ignore all mechanical devices that will be invented that can be attached to either a club or ones person.  Sounds like fun.  btw and on this subject...I screwed up and took a cart in Alabama so another lenten promise is down the drain.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 01:50:51 PM »
I screwed up and took a cart in Alabama so another lenten promise is down the drain.

Not if it was a Sunday!

But what if it was a Sunday morning, now there's a dilemma...resolvable the following Saturday p.m.

Art Roselle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2008, 01:53:18 PM »
I agree with the idea of some sort of maximum score.  Below is something I wrote a few months ago (under the  Modest Proposal thread).  Apologies if you already saw it, but I thought it would fit in this discussion too.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

As many have noted through the years, the shift from match play to medal play has had a negative impact on many aspects of golf from architecture to pace-of-play to the increasing complexity of the rules.  The problem with stroke play always comes back to questions of fairness.  Players have to have a way to finish every hole and there is a general sense that the impact of one bad swing should not disproportionately impact the entire round or tournament.  So, we need pages of rules and decisions on the rules to handle every possible circumstance.  In designing a course, architects have to be careful that bunkers are not “too deep” and swales are not too steep and anything different or quirky becomes a magnet for claims of unfairness.  All of this is a negative for the game in my opinion, but I think the “card and pencil” mentality is here to stay.  Despite that, here is a modest proposal for one possible compromise.

What if golf introduced the concept of maximum score per hole in all events, not just for handicap purposes?  Maybe it could be 2 strokes worse than a player’s handicap on a given hole.  So, if you carry an 8 handicap, then your max would be a triple on the first 8 handicap holes and a double-bogey on the rest.  Max for a scratch player (or better) would just be double-bogey on every hole.  With that in place, I think they could eliminate about 70% of the rules and just go back to a pure “play it as it lies” mentality.  The penalty for virtually everything could be stroke and distance and for more severe infractions (e.g. playing the wrong ball, improving one’s lie, etc.) maybe the penalty would just be to take your max.  We would no longer need differing rules for water hazards, lateral hazards, unplayable lies, immovable obstructions, etc. etc.  There would still be some rules that might carry a one shot penalty, such as moving a ball at rest, but most would be stroke-and-distance or “loss” of hole (i.e. max score).  Some cases might seem somewhat harsh or unfair, but it cannot be THAT bad.  Worst case you just get the maximum score and move on.  That would reduce the fairness gripe and would solve the “finishing-the-hole” problem.  Granted, you would lose the occasional Van de Velde moment and, in theory, a player could win a medal event on the 16th hole (if he had a big lead), but that is pretty rare and so what?  I think the benefits would far outweigh the negatives.  If Tiger hits two out of bounds, then he cards his double and moves on.  The only extra rules necessary would be for outside agencies (squirrel steals ball) and some abnormal ground conditions (GUR, etc.).  I would even scrap the concept of immovable obstructions and the like.  If you are a tour player and you hit it in the grandstand, then you can replay the shot with a penalty or try to hack it off the bleachers.  Don’t complain, just don’t hit it in there.  You are a professional for God’s sake.  Is stroke and distance too harsh for a water hazard?  Maybe, but it sure would be simple.  I guess you could even leave those rules in place, but it starts to be a slippery slope and I am not convinced that it wouldn't be easier to just stick with stroke and distance.

I started thinking about this because my son plays in some junior tournaments where they have a “double par max” rule in effect.  It is a great rule to keep play moving and it rarely affects the outcome.  If a kid hits his third into a bunker and then skulls it such that it embeds in the lip, he does not call a rules official over to determine whether the lip is a “closely mown area” or part of the bunker or to decide where he gets his drop.  Generally, he just picks it up and takes his 8.  It would be radical, but it works.  Also, it is not that foreign a concept.  The USGA already uses a version of this in determining handicaps with its “equitable stroke control”.  Also, the double-max rule is already effectively in place in tournaments using any sort of Stableford scoring system.

In addition to simplifying the basic rules, such a change might:

- Free up architects to design more interesting features
- Discourage courses from converting par 5s to par 4s, since such a change would in effect make it “easier” for players (lower the maximum score).
- Speed up play
- Encourage Tour players to take more risks, which might add excitement to the game
- Eliminate the need for distinctions between match and stroke play in the rules ("loss of hole" would become the equivalent of "take maximum score")

I am well aware that it will never happen, so there is no need to lecture me on the all the reasons the USGA or R&A will not actually do it.  I just thought it might be good food for thought.  I would be interested in any opinions about why it would not work in practice or what negative consequences it might have that make it just a bad idea.  Some might worry about the the purity of not always "holing out", but given that the history of the game is really in match play, I don't know that there is any real historic tradition attached to that concept.

Brent Hutto

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2008, 01:57:35 PM »
I think mechanical gimmicks hooked onto people's arms or whatever when they're playing golf ought to be disallowed because they are and look idiotic. But outlawing things due to their inherent stupidity in no way implies that they are efficacious.

I have no problem whatsoever if a PGA Tour player wants to play golf with a glove under his armpit, his finger up his nose or Spam in his pants. I do have a problem with Lift, Clean and Place (tm) and other sorry attempts to degrade the game into something fair and predictable. Heck I think golfers ought to be allowed to use 40 clubs, two nonconforming drivers, a Steely Dan, a GPS and a laser as long as they can finish 18 holes in three hours fifteen minutes or so.

Brent Hutto

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2008, 02:00:22 PM »
What if golf introduced the concept of maximum score per hole in all events, not just for handicap purposes?  Maybe it could be 2 strokes worse than a player’s handicap on a given hole.  So, if you carry an 8 handicap, then your max would be a triple on the first 8 handicap holes and a double-bogey on the rest.  Max for a scratch player (or better) would just be double-bogey on every hole.  With that in place, I think they could eliminate about 70% of the rules and just go back to a pure “play it as it lies” mentality.

I think that game is widely played under the name "Stableford".

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2008, 05:24:48 PM »

#2 - You are only allowed to touch a ball to place it on a tee on the tee box and after it is in the hole or your opponent concedes in match ply. In a nutshell, play it as it lies, this includes the green.


Mike

that rule would not only eliminate the cheater line, it would have every golfer looking for drier playing conditions as they would not want to be putting with a dirty ball (although we seem to be able to 'texas wedge' from the fringe without a problem).  Firm greens and surrounds (and fairways) would be valued more highly than the depth of shade of green.

Perhaps we should institute a global 'no lift and clean' day.  Perhaps a week, perhaps a month, perhaps .. no that is just silly.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jim Nugent

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2008, 12:07:50 AM »
The only reason our rule book is as thick as it is is because golfers are cheaters at heart.  Quinney knows he can not tuck a glove or towel under his arm pit so he buys big shirts and tucks his sleeve, now we need another rule.  

John, the solution to that: everyone must play golf naked.  Just like the Greeks used to hold the Olympic games. 

The LPGA might get a whole lot more popular (or not). 

JohnV

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2008, 08:54:58 PM »
For all of you who want to eliminate most of the rules.  Here are a few questions.

1) Where do we start from?
2) How much room do I have to start from?
3) What can I do before starting?  Can I use a tee? Can I use a pile of sand?
4) Who hits first from there?
5) Who hits first after the tee shot?
6) If that person doesn't get their second shot past the other player's ball, who hits next?  Do we go by who is furthest from the hole or do we alternate shots?

Ok, that is just a start, but you see that even if you go with your simplified rules, we've already added the Teeing Ground and Order of Play to the mix.

7) Continuing on ...  After I foozle my second shot, can I drop a ball and try it again for practice?  Oops, there's a Practice rule.
8) If I see you hit a good shot, can I ask what club you used?  Advice Rule needed.
9) How do I concede the hole? Rule 2.  Can I take it back?
10) Do I have to stand over you to see everything you do, or can I ask you what you stand?  If so, what happens if you tell me the wrong thing and when does that become binding.  There is Rule 9.
11) After we finish the first hole, where do we tee off from and who hits first?
12) What can I do in a bunker?  Can I put my clubs in there?  Can I touch the sand?  Oops we need a rule for that.
13) Can I move a leaf?
14) What happens if our balls are so close together that I can't hit mine without moving yours?  Do you have to play it from where it finishes or do you put it back?  Sorry, you can't put it back because that requires touching the ball and you've said that's not allowed.  Lets just play croquet then.

It doesn't take long before most of the rules would be there.  Sure there are probably some that could be simplified, especially if we got rid of stroke play.  But, you can't get away with just 3 rules.

Nice try though.

I love Mike Sweeney's desire to simplify the rules but he wants lift clean and cheat to be a part of them.

Brent Hutto

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2008, 09:36:01 PM »
John,

I've played a few matches under the Match Play Madness (tm) rule and it is a lot of fun. I've seen...I dunno maybe 50-100 matches played that way and never to my knowledge a single dispute or lack of good sportsmanship. I've also seen some amazing stuff that you'd never see in a "real" golf match. It also tends to result in a pace of something under 90 minutes per 9 holes because there's no "who's away" or looking for stakes or debating proper drop procedures. Plus it's hard to get anal about your preshot routine when you're playing under only one Rule.

1) Where do we start from?

The tee markers.

2) How much room do I have to start from?

Anywhere behind the tee markers.

3) What can I do before starting?  Can I use a tee? Can I use a pile of sand?

Anything you see fit, yep and yep.

4) Who hits first from there?

Doesn't matter a bit.

5) Who hits first after the tee shot?

Doesn't matter a bit.

6) If that person doesn't get their second shot past the other player's ball, who hits next?  Do we go by who is furthest from the hole or do we alternate shots?

Doesn't matter a bit.

Ok, that is just a start, but you see that even if you go with your simplified rules, we've already added the Teeing Ground and Order of Play to the mix.

7) Continuing on ...  After I foozle my second shot, can I drop a ball and try it again for practice?  Oops, there's a Practice rule.


It won't make any difference, go ahead.

8) If I see you hit a good shot, can I ask what club you used?  Advice Rule needed.

Not needed at all. You can ask I can answer or not answer. Doesn't matter.

9) How do I concede the hole? Rule 2.  Can I take it back?

Say "I concede" or equivalent. Of course you can't take it back, the hole has been conceded.

10) Do I have to stand over you to see everything you do, or can I ask you what you stand?  If so, what happens if you tell me the wrong thing and when does that become binding.  There is Rule 9.

If there are no rules then there's no advice needed. Simplicity has its virtues.

11) After we finish the first hole, where do we tee off from and who hits first?

The next tee markers and doesn't matter.

12) What can I do in a bunker?  Can I put my clubs in there?  Can I touch the sand?  Oops we need a rule for that.

Whatever you like except touch the ball. Yep and yep.

13) Can I move a leaf?

Sure, just don't touch or move the ball. If you touch or move the ball you lose the hole.

14) What happens if our balls are so close together that I can't hit mine without moving yours?  Do you have to play it from where it finishes or do you put it back?  Sorry, you can't put it back because that requires touching the ball and you've said that's not allowed.  Lets just play croquet then.

I've had this very situation happen in a bunker of all places. I hit my ball and both balls went flying. As it turns out, his popped up and onto the green and make scooted off into the rough beside the green. We still ended up halving the hole IIRC. It was funny.

It doesn't take long before most of the rules would be there.  Sure there are probably some that could be simplified, especially if we got rid of stroke play.  But, you can't get away with just 3 rules.

Match play is the thing. Once you want to have a whole field of guys keeping score you have to run the thing like a lawyer or there'll be no end of bickering. But put two guys on the first tee and get them both to agree to just one rule (No Touching!) and the complications just melt away. Sure one of them might act an ass and try to take advantage of the situation but that possibility is worth risking in exchange for never having to remember or argue or look up or worry about a single Rules situation again.

The key thing insight is that almost none of the items you mention matter per se, they only matter if both players are of a mindset that all that kind of stuff is important. Play the ball as it lies, the course as you find it, treat your opponent as a worthy adversary and only concern yourself with getting the ball in the hole before he does. These are the essence of the game and an occasion Match Play Madness (tm) game will reinforce the true silliness of the things we are conditioned to concern ourselves over.

JohnV

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2008, 12:14:29 AM »
Brent,

You say it doesn't matter who hits first.  What if I want to hit second and so do you?  How do you resolve that?

What about clubs?  Can I use anything I want?  Can I use a superball?

No rules means no equipment rules either I assume.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2008, 01:57:21 AM »
John,

we are talking about the playing rules not equipment. Clearly some rules are needed but are they all needed John ???

Brent Hutto

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2008, 06:28:18 AM »
We generally play ready golf. On the tee whoever gets there first goes ahead and hits and pretty much the same from the fairway or on the green.

As for equipment rules? None. Use whatever you've got. I've always played Match Play Madness (tm) with pretty hardcore golfers. I have played it in a foursome with a guy who had a non-conforming driver BTW. But nobody has ever wanted to use something other than a normal golf ball.

The game I'm describing only works among like-minded individuals. If you were playing with someone who didn't buy into some basis assumptions (i.e. hold the club by the grip end and make a fair stroke at the ball, no yelling at someone during their backswing) it would turn into a joke and, for my part, not be much fun. But I've never run into that situation among the guys I play with.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2008, 06:41:26 AM »


I love Mike Sweeney's desire to simplify the rules but he wants lift clean and cheat to be a part of them.


John,

In true GCA spirit of posting, you have misread what I wrote. Clean was never part of my equation, just "lift and place". I was simply trying to help out the Supers when balls plug and did not want golfers chopping at balls plugged in greens and fairways. This would only be in place by The Committee in very rare occasions when a course is very wet. It will also encourage less water (good for the environment) and firmer conditions.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 06:49:40 AM by Mike Sweeney »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2008, 08:27:30 AM »
awesome Mike Sweeney,

Van de Velde could have pick up on the 72nd tee and say, hey I won the Open...

Simplifying the rules:

you are allowed only 8 clubs...
I'll keep the water and OB rules...

just no ground under repair stupidity, play as it lies...
you can only mark your ball once on the green, once you start putting, you have to finish

JohnV

Re: Simplifying the playing rules
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2008, 09:39:27 AM »
The game I'm describing only works among like-minded individuals. If you were playing with someone who didn't buy into some basis assumptions (i.e. hold the club by the grip end and make a fair stroke at the ball, no yelling at someone during their backswing) it would turn into a joke and, for my part, not be much fun. But I've never run into that situation among the guys I play with.

In other words, you have to have some rules (or assumptions or etiquette) that are agreed upon by the "like-minded individuals" beyond the three ones that were described above.

That is my point.  Nothing can be as simple as some of you want to make it sound.

What you are playing is a different game (or at least a different form of the game).  That's fine, but I don't think that anyone can say that the game of golf can be simplified to the three rules that were stated above.

Phillippe,  a change to 8 clubs is not "Simplifying the rules", just changing the specification.  To simplify the rules, you would have to get rid of the restriction on the number of clubs.  You might simplify the game if you limited it to 8 clubs, but not the rules.

Ground under repair could be eliminated.  It would simplify the game to some small extent, but would it make it better?  If a ball comes to rest in a big hole dug by the greenkeeper while he was doing repairs, is it right to require the player to play it or take an unplayable?  I don't think so, you seem to think that it is better in the name of simplification.

Continuous putting has been tried and I don't think it did much.  It also doesn't work for match play unless you remove the requirement that the player further from the hole must always play first, which is a pretty basic rule of match play.

Mike, sorry if I misrepresented your thoughts.  But, remember when the game was "simpler" they didn't allow relief from embedded balls.  At least if I can believe that part of Mark Frost's book on the Ouimet Open win. ;)

If I were to choose one thing to make the game simpler, I would eliminate dropping.  Just place the ball anywhere that meets the rules for things like GUR, obstructions, water hazards, unplayables, or lost balls.

I'd eliminate the term "club-length" and say that the ball must be placed (or dropped) within 1 or 2 meters of the point.  Everyone could have a club with a one meter mark on it to ensure the proper distance.  That isn't really simplifying, just standardizing to me.  No advantage for the guy with the broomstick.

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