John Harbottle

[Jordan Wall]

What is the consensus on his work?

I have only played Gold Mountain of his courses, which I really enjoy, but he has designed many other courses as well.

He is the designer for the new Palouse Ridge golf course, on the WSU campus, which I have walked and it looks to be a fantastic course.

Just curious to see what others think of hiswork.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Kyle Henderson]

I've experienced most of his designs in Northern California. He did very good work at his original designs of Stevinson Ranch and Cinnabar Hills (27 holes). I'd probably give them both 7's on the Doak scale.

I also enjoyed his renovation at Monarch Bay, though that course has had a lot of argonomic difficulties afterwards due to the salty, bayside soils.

He did some "restorative" bunker work at the Castlewood Hill course, but I never saw the course before he touched it, so I can't really comment on his work there.

Definitely a talent.

[Jeff Doerr]

Jordan,

I've played Gold Mountain and Juniper. Juniper is really a must play in the Bend area. It may be the best value in that whole region. The routing is really fun with a good mix of elevation, bunkers and natural hazards. The greens don't have a huge amount of movement, but have good variety and are lightning fast & firm.

Cheers, Jeff

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan,

I've played Gold Mountain and Juniper. Juniper is really a must play in the Bend area. It may be the best value in that whole region. The routing is really fun with a good mix of elevation, bunkers and natural hazards. The greens don't have a huge amount of movement, but have good variety and are lightning fast & firm.

Cheers, Jeff

Jeff,

Check that, I've played Juniper too.
Great course.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would say the jury is still out.  He hasn't had a breakthrough golf course that lands him in any top 100 list.  From his web site, his new projects,

Monarch Bay, San Leandro, CA
Hawks Landing, Madison, WI
ArrowCreek “Challenge”, Reno, NV
BanBury Golf Club, Eagle, ID
Cinnabar Hills Golf Course, San Jose, CA
Izatys Golf and Yacht Club “Sanctuary”, Onamia, MN
Izatys Golf and Yacht Club “Black Brook”, Onamia, MN
Ridgecrest Golf Course, Nampa, ID
Resort Course at Genoa Lakes, Genoa, NV
Sunbrook “Black Lava”, St. George, UT
The Golf Club at Genoa Lakes, Genoa, NV
The Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Bremerton, WA
Stevinson Ranch “Savannah”, Stevinson, CA
Palouse Ridge Golf Course, Pullman, WA
Juniper Golf Club, Redmond, OR
Timilick Tahoe, Truckee, CA
Dairy Creek Golf Course, San Luis Obispo, CA
Cascadia Golf Club, Bonney Lake, WA (in planning)
Quigley Canyon Country Club, Hailey, ID (in planning)
Tillamook Bay Golf Club, Tillamook, OR (in planning)

I've played Stevinson which is fairly good, I would give it a 6.5 but not a 7.  Monarch Bay has a few interesting holes but the argonomic problems that Kyle talks about should have been discovered by Harbottle and he left them high and dry.

The golf club at Genoa is not that great.  Hard to say what when on here, Peter Jacobson was involved in one of his first projects and in the end its about a 3.  Timlick in Tahoe is another course with Jacobson which I'm going to play this summer, but from what I here its very pretty but with not much substance.

Personally I think he needs to take some chances and break out from the 3rd rate architects.  If he stays on this path, he'll be another Ted Robinson.

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

Be sure to play the Challenge Course at Arrow Creek in Reno if circumstances ever allow.

Well done layout by Harbottle in concert with Fuzzy Z as a player consultant. Gets very little attention from this group here. I'd put it among the top courses to play when in the greater Reno / Carson City area.

[Garland Bayley]

I would say the jury is still out.  He hasn't had a breakthrough golf course that lands him in any top 100 list.  From his web site, his new projects,

...The Olympic Course at Gold Mountain, Bremerton, WA
...
I've played Stevinson which is fairly good, I would give it a 6.5 but not a 7.  Monarch Bay has a few interesting holes but the argonomic problems that Kyle talks about should have been discovered by Harbottle and he left them high and dry.
...

If I remember right, Olympic got best new public the year it opened. I think it is a bit of a break through course. Have to wonder what would have happened had he got the Chambers Bay project.

The Doak scale only has whole numbers and .5 rounds up, so I guess you do give it a 7.

[Garland Bayley]

Jeff,

Check that, I've played Juniper too.
Great course.

Way to enhance your space cadet image Jordan. You had some of us dottering old men wondering about your original claim given we knew you had played Juniper too.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Harbottle' s design and build estimates were about $7 million at Chambers Bay.  The RT JonesII bid estimate was about $14million.  As a local, I would have liked to have seen Harbottle get the Chambers job.

$20 million later Chambers was built by Jones, they have a US Open and a green fee way higher than anything else locally. 

It leaves me with some mixed feelings.  I spoke with Harbottle's parents at the announcement of final architect and they were very disappointed.  Had he gotten the project, I think we would have had a different type of venue on the same spectacular settiing.  One that benefitted local golfers more than the travel golfer that is now the target of Chambers. 

But we now have a US Open!

[David Stamm]

I've never played any of Harbottle's original work. I would like to play Dairy Creek the next time I'm heading up to Carmel. In addition, both courses at Genoa Lakes appear to be worth a looksy. I think some of the work he has done remodel-wise is decent based on the photos I've seen such as at Hacienda GC. I don't like some of what he's done to other classic courses. I think his original work looks solid.

[Joel_Stewart]

From his web site, the list of restoration projects.  Of the two that I have played, Los Angeles CC and Stanford, I would say his work has been less than stellar.   LACC has now brought in Gil Hanse and Geoff to do another restoration.


Big Canyon CC, Newport Beach, CA
Portland Golf Club, Portland, OR
Castlewood Country Club, Pleasanton, CA
Fircrest Golf Club, Tacoma, WA
Hillcrest Country Club, Boise, ID
Overlake Golf and Country Club, Medina, WA
Stanford Golf Club, Stanford, CA
Stockton Country Club, Stockton, CA
The Los Angeles Country Club “North Course,"
Los Angeles, CA
Virginia Country Club, Long Beach, CA
Hillcrest Country Club, Los Angeles, CA
Royal Oaks Country Club, Vancouver, WA
Tacoma Country and Golf Club, Tacoma, WA
Hirao Country Club, Nagoya, Japan
Eugene Country Club, Eugene, OR
San Gabriel Country Club, San Gabriel, CA
Hacienda Golf Club, La Habra Heights, CA
Napa Valley Country Club, Napa, CA
Saticoy Country Club, Somis, CA
The Country Club at Salt Lake, Salt Lake City, UT
Park Meadows Country Club, Park City, UT (in planning)
Marin Country Club, Novato, CA (in planning)

[Jordan Wall]

Joel,

I was not aware he had done restoration work at Overlake.  Thats a fun, quirky little track.
It also sounds like he messed up quite an oppurtunity at LACC too.  Thats too bad.

[David Stamm]

In all fairness, I think Graves may have done more damage to LACC than JH. Nevertheless, yes, I don't think he did a very good job there.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Years ago Doak and Harbottle were roommates just starting out with Pete Dye.  JC

[Kevin_Reilly]

Harbottle is also doing work at Orinda CC (Orinda, CA).

[Adam Clayman]

Of the three I've seen, I'd place them Stevenson Ranch, Gold Mountain and Ridgecrest in Nampa.
 SR gets high marks for creating character out of flat savannah, with features reminiscent of MacRaynFord in it's juxtaposition. While Gold Mountain had land with great character, I felt the maintenance meld was ill-suited for the design. Nampa, has a combination of the two. A flat front nine which suddenly drops to a lower, still flat, river bed. The routing maximizes the Beautiful setting, crescendo'ing before the penultimate hole which is severely uphill and has a green with side slopes one can only describe as MacRaynFord  on steroids.

[John Kirk]

The two courses I know I've played by Harbottle are Juniper GC and the renovation of the Stanford University GC.

Juniper is a very good golf course.  Nice variety, good use of existing natural features, and relatively gentle greens.  From the back tees, there are a few holes (off the top of my head, 1, 10, and 17) that have a big rise in the from about 220-240 out.  It made those holes very tough for me, but if you could carry the ball 15-20 yards further, you probably got a 50 yard benefit.  I found it quite difficult, but I thought it was clearly a big hitter's course.

I'm a tougher grader than some here.  I think the Doak rating for Juniper is 5, which means I like it.

I am much less fond of the changes that Mr. Harbottle made at Stanford.  Instead of a restoration, which the GCA treehouse tends to recommend, Mr. Harbottle rebuilt the greens with somewhat different characteristics.  He built in falloffs of the backs of a few greens, where I don't believe that was originally the case.  The scope and size of the bunkering was made less dramatic.  The course plays about the same, but it doesn't look near as nice as the historical photos indicate.

Stanford is a good example of a course that lost much of its character in the last 15 years.  The course used to be long and wide, but now it is quite short, and needs heavy rough and narrow fairways to defend par.  It's a shame, really.  Although I have no data to back this up, I would guess Stanford decided to save money on maintenance as part of the decision to renovate rather than restore.  This is a key Thomas/Bell course that deserves a sensitive restoration.

Stanford used to be a Doak 6, but with the modified greens and bunkers, plus the necessary changes to holes 3 and 4 to allow the widening of Willow Rd., I would downgrade the course to a Doak 5.  Restore the bunkering and greens using course photographs from the 1930s, and the course would once again deserve a rating of 6.

[Jonathan Cummings]

John Kirk - some day I have to meet you!  JC

[Pat Howard]

Joel,

I was not aware he had done restoration work at Overlake.  Thats a fun, quirky little track.
It also sounds like he messed up quite an oppurtunity at LACC too.  Thats too bad.

Jordan,
Our club has been consulting with him about the course for some time now. I'm not sure about the specifics or what he's suggested. Scott Stambaugh, our head greenkeeper, would be able to provide much more info.

BTW, we just got new wooden pins and new flags! They're 1000% better looking!

[Bill Satterfield]

I just played Saticoy CC two weeks ago and his reworking of the bunkers there was masterful.  The head pro showed us some before and after photos and is was amazing the transformation and life he was able to put back into the course.  I've played a handful of his designs (BanBury which was host of the 2005 U.S. Junior Girls, Ridgecrest, Sunbrook, Gold Mountain, and restore projects like Hillcrest, Fircrest, and Eugene CC) and have always been impressed with his work.  Most of it isn't mind-blowing, but very solid work to be sure.

[David Kelly]

I agree with John about Stanford and now Harbottle is in the process of carving up Bell's Brookside GC in Pasadena as part of a 10-year project. 

He is rebuilding what he must think Bell bunkers look like but since the people on the Rose Bowl Committee responsible for overseeing the project have no idea what they look like themselves there is nobody there to tell him otherwise. 

[Scott Stambaugh]

Joel,

I was not aware he had done restoration work at Overlake.  Thats a fun, quirky little track.
It also sounds like he messed up quite an oppurtunity at LACC too.  Thats too bad.

Jordan,
Our club has been consulting with him about the course for some time now. I'm not sure about the specifics or what he's suggested. Scott Stambaugh, our head greenkeeper, would be able to provide much more info.

BTW, we just got new wooden pins and new flags! They're 1000% better looking!

Harbottle developed a Master Plan for Overlake a little over ten years ago.  Bits and pieces of it had been completed through the years, it wasn't until three years ago that the club finally got serious about protecting the integrity of their A.V. Macan course.  Harbottle was asked to update the Master Plan.  It has hints of modern equipment response as well as additions of original Macan bunkers that were never built. 

The club's current Green Committee is in the process of developing a five year plan to complete all of the work- most notably drainage work, rebuilding tees and bunkers and development of a long-range tree management program.  If approved, I think it will restore the timeless quality of the golf course.

I feel one of the greatest contributions Harbottle made was the fact that he didn't succumb to the vocal minority who feel that some of Macan's original greens are too severe.  He essentially discouraged them to do anything to their greens.  To the best of my knowledge, there are only nine of them left.   

SS