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Mark Bourgeois

Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« on: February 19, 2008, 08:24:47 AM »
TOC is the subject of more homage, I'm sure by far, than any other course. Homage: not template holes, although they may have them.  Not links, although they may be.

Homage is paying tribute; examples of TOC homage in action might include:
A. Can play holes with a putter
B. Broad expanses of short grass (width)
C. Huge greens...or huge and wild greens?
D. Double greens
E. Shared fairways (this may be subsumed in B.)
F. Reversibility
G. ???
H. ???

Additional questions:
1. What courses were designed, to at least some degree, in homage to TOC?  I can think of Meadow Club, ANGC (NLE), Alwoodley, Woking, Royal Melbourne (West), Jockey Club, Links at Hope Island.  What about Legend, Beechtree, and Pinehurst #2: does it count if they play similar to TOC but don't appear to be "public" homages to TOC?  Thinking out loud, I would have to say without intent, perhaps stated intent, it cannot be homage.
2. Which courses are the best homage, in terms both of greatness as well as "homage-inuity?" (Or would that be "homogeneity?") It sounds from Ran's writeup that Jockey Club might take the homage-inuity crown.

Jockey Club's 2nd green: homage to another 2nd?


3. Are there any really good modern examples of TOC homage?  I would nominate Links at Hope Island, but I'd be curious to hear of any in the U.S.
4. What course after TOC is subject to the most homages?  Many I imagine would say Augusta (e.g., Country Club of CT), but does that count if Augusta originally was homage to TOC?
5. Other course homages?

By the way, I don't think we should count "replica" courses as those aren't really homage, they're just plain ol' copies! (Hmm, I guess why template holes shouldn't count as homage -- unless maybe you're working them like Macdonald did where you can't easily tell a hole is a Road Hole, or where a single hole might incorporate multiple templates.)

Thanks,
Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2008, 08:29:10 AM »
Oh, and don't forget the question in the title thread!  Especially keen to think how those who find template holes -- and for that matter replica or "tribute" courses -- unimaginative. What's the distinction?

Thanks,
Mark

Philippe Binette

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2008, 08:37:59 AM »
I don't know if a course ever came close to pay hommage to the Old Course...

Part of its uniquness to me is that its a ''landscape for golf'' = a continuous golf experience that starts of the first tee and end up on the 18th green.
In that regard, we could go out tommorow, dig a hole  (and mow the grass) in the ground a 100 yards past the current hole location and it would be a brand new but still great challenge. No other course in the world that I've seen can do that...

the rest of the courses are 18 holes, architect design 18 holes that makes a course... the Old Course is a course, a track... Just look at the way it's mown  and it looks on a aerial photograph, there's nothing like it.... (North Berwick 1-4 and 14-18 does come close, but not quite...)

Philippe Binette

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2008, 08:41:39 AM »
The Old Course is design by the negative...

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2008, 08:52:16 AM »
Philippe,

That reminds me, what's the worst homage everyone's seen?

Homage doesn't have to be any good. I remember Stallone saying when Rambo came out his acting was homage to Gary Cooper...

Mark

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2008, 09:03:49 AM »
Does Old Macdonald qualify as homage?

What about:
Architects?
That Brian Silva course in TN?

What if instead of architect homage a client asked for course that paid homage to a single course, but not TOC?

What are the candidates and why?

Why aren't there any Pinehurst #2 homages out there? Or are there?

What if the choice were limited to post WWII courses?

Mark

TEPaul

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2008, 09:14:27 AM »
Philippe:

Are you saying the greens of TOC were never "built" at all that they are basically just natural landforms used as greens? I think Alan Robertson "built" the 17th green however.

There is supposedly one green at Pine Valley that was not "built" at all, just a natural landform planted with grass. They used to refer to it as their "vegetative" green. Can anyone guess which one it is?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2008, 09:19:47 AM »
Tom,

I'll guess 16, but 13 and 4 seem like options, as well.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2008, 09:24:30 AM »
Would that make the PV green homage to TOC?

Ha ha...Pine Valley: worst homage to TOC, ever.

TEPaul

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2008, 09:34:41 AM »
Mark:

No, I doubt that would make Pine Valley an homage to TOC. I also believe if some of the old architects like Crump could read some of this stuff on here they'd probably laugh their asses off.

However, I think the written record proves that some of those old guys like Crump were trying to imitate some basic concepts that would play out in strategic ways and shot values like other holes elsewhere even if the holes they were  trying to do that on might not look anything like the holes from which they were taking those concepts. On #12 at Pine Valley, for instance, Crump wanted to imitate the runaway green concept of the 16th at Myopia. But if someone looked at those two holes they wouldn't see much about them that reminded them of the other except for the runaway green aspect.

Mike:

You got it---#16.

Apparently, and according to Alison something on the front left of #4 green had to be minimized. In 1921 he said the green contour on the front left that apparently resembled a large cup saucer was too severe. The truth is about six of Crump's original greens really were too severe in various ways for play.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:40:44 AM by TEPaul »

Ed Oden

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2008, 09:39:48 AM »
I thought Fazio's two courses at World Woods were homages to Pine Valley and ANGC.  Staying with Fazio, I seem to recall hearing that Pinehurst #8 was his homage to #2.

TEPaul

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2008, 09:42:43 AM »
Ed:

I think a lot of people have tried to do some kind of homage to Pine Valley or some kind of imitation of it, at least that's what they said they were trying to do.  ;)

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2008, 09:51:31 AM »
Has anyone tried to develop a desert course in homage to Pine Valley?

Prairie Dunes has been called the "Pine Valley of the West," but I think that's more of a rating / slope type of "homage" and so not really homage.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2008, 10:01:57 AM »
Based to the convo so far, it seems like many will say if a designer pays homage to a course he is using it just as a ham handed marketing tool, or if there is a resemblance to the original the newer course will be derided as a cheap copy.

But the idea of homage is to pay tribute to, to be inspired by, the original, not simply to copy.

Maybe the way to go as a designer is if you're going to pay homage, make it an obscure form of homage, lest opprobrium rain down on you for unimaginative copying.

Are homage courses necessarily worse than the original?

Some movie directors note the movies that should be remade aren't the successes but the failures.

Sounds good to me; what might be "noble failures" out there worthy of homage?

If Pinehurst #8 is Fazio's homage to #2, is ANGC his homage to #8?

Mark

Bill_McBride

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2008, 10:16:37 AM »
Jack Nicklaus' "New Course" at Grand Cypress is surely the most likely candidate for homage of TOC.  Very large double greens, wide fairways, flattish.

I played it long before I played TOC.  Looking back, there wasn't much to that homage as the New Course in Orlando wasn't anywhere near as fast and firm.

"Fast and firm" is probably where most homages would miss the mark.

TEPaul

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2008, 10:16:48 AM »
Mark:

I'll tell you one thing about homages and that is Coore and Crenshaw really did say that what they did with the look of some of their architectural features at Hidden Creek in New Jersey was to try to pay homage to the early heathland look and style. Their particular foreman on that project was apparently picked for that reason----eg he knew more about the heathland look than they did. And the owner of the place apparently made a dedicated trip or two to the heathlands for that reason.

I've always felt that for fairly obvious reasons the early heathland architecture became a lot more of a model to follow with inland architecture than the Scottish linksland.

Dan Moore

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2008, 10:35:22 AM »
Kevin Cook in Tommy's Honor reports Old Tom Morris built the current 18th green at TOC after he returned to St Andrew's from Prestwick.  They uncovered bones from an old burial ground in the process but proceeded to complete the work. 
"Is there any other game which produces in the human mind such enviable insanity."  Bernard Darwin

Philippe Binette

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2008, 01:08:50 PM »
to TE Paul

I know that 17th, 18th, and probably the 1st green were built...

I don't know if the other ones were built but

they're not natural, they're the fruit of 500 years of maintenance...

I'm just saying that if the 2nd hole was 520 yards instead of 420, it would have pushed every greens back 100 yards and it would still be a great course, after 500 years of maintenance

Philippe Binette

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2008, 01:09:55 PM »
desin by the negative meant negative space design...

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2008, 01:23:37 PM »
Philippe

I'm not sure I follow your comment of TOC's use of negative space:
-- Use of "positive" (or active) negative space is a very modernist concept in architecture, but TOC's architecture antedates all that.
-- Prior to modernist movements in architecture, voids were not consciously designed to a useful purpose.  Even cathedral vaults do not contain a negative space that is actually used.

What are examples of voids put to use on TOC? I don't think you can count bunkers, for every course had / has those, and it's not so much a use of negative space anyway, for what gives them function is in fact the sand plus the faces, which are not negative space in any sense.

So...please explain further!

Thanks,
Mark

Philippe Binette

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2008, 02:07:09 PM »
I didn't know the significance in building architecture, but in landscape architecture we use it a different way, or it might be a mistake of french translation... again.

By espace négatif in landscape architecture, we meant that instead of determining an element by what it is, we determinate it by what it isn't...

Most of the golf courses have been developped by somebody who said: OK, the 35 yard-wide or so fairway (the element) will go in this line of the tee, turn and go at this green and we'll put two bunkers on the inside of the dogleg and that will make hole no 1.

The Old Course is better understood by the fact that you consider everything, everywhere as fairway and then you eliminate the areas we can't mow; steeper slopes, tight groupings of bunkers, massive gorse bush areas... and then at the end of this process, the golf course take shape

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2008, 08:56:12 PM »
Philippe

No I think it's the same concept!  This was one of the things that helped define the break of modernism with the past. A positive notion of negative space was radical and extended into painting, sculpture, architecture, poetry, music -- and landscape architecture.

I don't know a lot about landscape architecture, but my understanding is that the pioneer in thinking of the positive uses of voids was someone named Camillo Sitte.  He was Austrian; do you know of him?

Apparently, he was one of the first to reverse the way to think about urban planning, changing the priority from where to place solid objects (positive space) to optimizing the use of space itself.

On the building architecture front, if you get up (or over, if you are Canadian French!) to Amsterdam, check out the Amsterdam Commodities Exchange.  I spent a fair amount of time studying this building just last week!  The architect, Hendrick Berlage, reduced the ornamentation from the facade common at the time it was built (1890-1903).  This was a building built primarily to optimize not the positive space (materials, forms, facades, etc) but the space around which it was built!

Berlage wrote, "The nineteenth century forgot to build from the inside out."  He sought to create an "art of space."

I apologize for going on like this -- even though I could go on and on!  I have been studying modernism lately and this is one of the really cool ideas to come out of it, this reconceptualization of space from a void to something to be designed for: positive negative space.

I think this idea may be one of the developments that contributed to naturalistic "obscurantism" in golf-course design: just as you write, on a golf course (like in a painting) negative space is the stuff that's not nominally the golf course but rather the background, the stuff on the sides or "outside the ropes."

For a designer to care about negative space means that he has revalued negative space in relation to positive space; he finds the design and treatment of negative space more important.

From my reading, this concept, so common today as to constitute a subsumed, unconscious belief shared by all of us in the Western world -- i.e., we don't even realize this is not how people thought about their surroundings before the modernist revolution -- originated in modernism, and was one of the major contributions of Cubism (although the revolution in thought began with the Impressionists, who chased the light all the way into the corners of their canvasses).

So, Philippe, do you think TOC actually was designed from this "negative" perspective way back when? Is there anything someone wrote or said to support this view?

I can see how they practiced "addition by subtraction" back then but isn't that just down to the limitations of agronomy, construction technologies, that sort of thing, rather than a conscious design philosophy?

The one thing I can think of that has a tantalizingly vague connection to all this is the decision in the late 19th century to widen the course.  But widening implies they only thought in terms of positive space back then...yes?

Mark

Philippe Binette

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2008, 09:32:26 PM »
how it happened officialy, I don't know, the result is there though...

When they widened the course, I doubt they were thinking of seeking a proper width and try to determinate an isolated fairway... they probably just chopped down stuff to widen the playing surface, everything was playing surface, not a clear fairway...

the course is not an design objective with preconceived thoughts on it, it's a result of eliminating what's not golf.

JESII

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2008, 08:53:00 AM »
I got lost in negative space there for a minute, but I believe Royal New Kevt was intended as an homage to Royal County Down...or was it Irish links golf? Either way, I felt like I was playing golf on the moon...which I consider a good thing.

JMorgan

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Re: Homage: Imaginative or Derivative?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2008, 09:03:44 AM »

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