Nurseries, lets talk it up

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There are so many different grasses these days. I am wondering what the treehouse thinks about on site nurseries where the Super can test different grasses over several years to watch and help them make better calls down the road on what is best for their fact situation. also allowing for better transition grasses or mixtures as well. aka in our situation which grass really works with the green complexes best.

[Joe Hancock]

Tiger,

I think the time it takes for grasses to show either their positive or negative traits is beyond what golf course developers are willing to wait. I don't know of any courses that took more than 2 years to get to grassing, although I'm sure there are some oddities in that department, but I think the time to test would be much beyond this time frame anyway.

The other thing is the nursery grass is never under the pressure that the turf on a golf course is. No foot traffic, ball marks(yes, this is a consideration in grass selection), daily mowing, etc. It's difficult sometimes to take university studies back to the course because of these issues.

I don't see it being a helpful or viable process.

Joe

[JohnH]

That's what the research facilities at the universities are for.  Start establishing nurseries on site, then the turf schools might lose their funding...

My nursery is necessary for unforeseen instances of vandalism and turf loss due to mother nature, etc.  I'm not so sure there would be justification for anything further.

[John Kavanaugh]

I like to see supers grow what they got.  Isn't it easier and cheaper to find a super that works instead of a new grass.

[Joe Hancock]

I like to see supers grow what they got.  Isn't it easier and cheaper to find a super that works instead of a new grass.

I hear what you're saying, John. But, generally speaking, a new golf course does have to plant something in the way of grass. That decision might as well be as educated as possible, don't you think?

Joe

[John Kavanaugh]

Nurseries before construction are fine.  I thought this thread was about existing courses.

[Joe Hancock]

Nurseries before construction are fine.  I thought this thread was about existing courses.

Maybe it is....

I was thinking pre-construction. Oh well...I was on the wrong page again.

Sorry.

[Don_Mahaffey]

If you've got a sod farm that tries to do business in the golf market anywhere near you, they are probably already doing the work, and most likely can answer most of your questions.

Being 30 miles from Champion Turf farms and being able to pick the brain of a warm-season turf legend like Morris Brown is all the research I need.  

[Nick Cauley]

I think this would be a great ideal, but I do not know how feasible it is.  It would be great to compare zoysia to bermuda side by side in the same environment.  On each individual course there are several different growing environments (shady sites, ph differences, soil differences and so on).  At my course 2-8 are in the woods with shade and soil issues, while 1, 10-18 are in the open with good growing conditions.  So unless you can compare each grass in each individual environment I am not sure how much difference it would make.  I agree with Mr. Mahaffey, if you have a sod farm near by I think you could find what you are looking for.   

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Jo that is actually my point. One would have fact situations where you could impact the playing service as needed to learn. I am talkinga bout existing courses where you are redoing your greens every 10 to 15 years or so anyway. This should give one a much better knowledge base to make calls from.  Don as you might guess there is not a strong turf farm near dear ole Lafayette, La. We are talking about doing one at Oakbourne and I would like to see us do this. A course in North Louisiana has a great system where they are trying several different grasses with different traffic situations. They are even trying a co 2 subtaranian system to bring cool weather grasses to the gulf coast climate.

[Ray Richard]

I have the University of Rhode Island and Umass-Stockbridge nearby. These two schools have several PhD's who are willing to talk all day about individual turfgrass performance. They both have huge turfgrass test plots and they are willing to give you a guided tour.

[Nick Cauley]

Tiger,

I was thinking pre-construction also.  I think it would be a good idea to have different test plots for possible future uses. 

[JohnH]

I have the University of Rhode Island and Umass-Stockbridge nearby. These two schools have several PhD's who are willing to talk all day about individual turfgrass performance. They both have huge turfgrass test plots and they are willing to give you a guided tour.

Agreed.  There are turf schools around the corner everywhere that have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in research that address all the issues that are relevant here.  I'm lucky enough to be nearby Michigan State University, and they have always been available, as I'm sure any other would be as well.  That's what they're for.

[Craig Sweet]

The only thing is this...every nursery...test plot..etc. Has to be maintained and maintained daily in the same manner.  Is this something you're willing to pay for? If the grounds crew is short on time what projects/routine maintenance should they give up to maintain the test plots?

We keep a small nursery green, and sometimes we mow a small area next to it at fairway height just in case we need a strip or two of sod....

[Tommy Williamsen]

I suspect most clubs have a nursery to sod problematic places.  I would be interesting to know how many courses actually test different kinds of grasses.  If I remember correctly Pine Valley's practice area has a variety of grasses.  That would be a good place to have a nursery or test grasses before regrassing a course.  We regrassed my club a few years ago but tested the grass on two fairways before deciding what grass to use.  We went with a grass that was different than the one's we tested.

[Don_Mahaffey]

IMO, unless the grass is under traffic stress and everything else that goes with providing a good golf turf over the long haul, your just not going to get a good idea if the grass will hold up or not.
Chances are, there is a golf course with similar conditions that you can visit and get most of the info you need. Test plots for a year prior to construction would mean absolutely nothing to me and could, IMO, lead to some bad decisions.
You need to find a similar turf in a similar climate with similar expectations.
If your going with something brand new that has never been used, then yes, I'd plant it somewhere in a high traffic area and see how it holds up for a couple of years before regrassing everything.
This isn't the old days where supers had to develop their own grasses; almost every large university with any type of turf program has an area with test plots.
Testing chemicals, fertilizers, or different cultural practices on your golf course is a different story and control areas are a good thing. But, I don't see test plots of different grasses being a practical use of resources.

[Brent Hutto]

The public course that I played for ten years was considering moving away from its long-time common Bermuda greens to one of the newer hybrids. So they planted a test plot on some unused space between a green and the next tee and also dug up one putting green and reseeded it with the new variety. The test plot was some of the best looking turf on the property but on an actual putting green it turned out that the roots never became deep and strong enough to stand up to the stress of foot traffic and ballmarks and the cutting of holes every day.

It putted wonderfully (unlike the rest of the greens on the course it had fairly predictable and managable grain effects on putts) but they totally had to baby it with a much more intensive maintenance than they could afford to do over the entire course so the experiment was a failure. That test plot is probably still there and thriving, last time I saw it anyway.

[Nick Cauley]

Turf schools have great test plots with graduate and undergrads watching them, they will not watch and maintain the grass the same as supers.  Supers today keep the grass on life support with super low fertility and very little to no water,  you don't receive this type of stress at universities.

We have two test greens, and we treat them like greens on the course, they are used on a regular basis by the college golf team.   So by using these greens in our environment we get a pretty good feeling how they will do on the course.

[JohnH]

Turf schools have great test plots with graduate and undergrads watching them, they will not watch and maintain the grass the same as supers.  Supers today keep the grass on life support with super low fertility and very little to no water,  you don't receive this type of stress at universities.

Have to disagree, Nick.  Had the opportunity to work at a research facility for a season, and continue to be closely involved some years later.  I can say with certainty that real world research is simulated on a daily basis.  I truly hope you don't believe low fertility - low water simulations aren't an integral part of turf research at any university with a turf program.

[Nick Cauley]

John H,

I agree there are a few turf programs that have the money and manpower to research under the same conditions in the field (MSU,PSU,NCST).  I know that those programs can research low fertility, little water and so on.   IMO, Most of the turf programs in the country cant do this, they dont have the students that are willing to double cut from thursday thru sunday, roll, and then check the greens for hot spots from noon till five.  Their is no doubt that universities do great research, but I do believe that most universities can not simulate 150 rounds a day with the grass being on the edge.

[Brent Hutto]

Few university research programs would be able to replicate the intensity and scale of turf usage that actually occurs on a busy course. But then again few course superintendents could study things in controlled conditions or try various scenarios as readily as a large university based research program.

My conclusion is to seek the value brought to the discussion by both sectors.

[JohnH]

Actually, traffic simulators are quite common in one form or another at many university turf programs.  In my experience, the vast majority of work is done by the graduate assistants in direct relation to their field of study who are at the facility on a daily basis, working toward a Doctorate or Masters.  Only a select few students are needed to perform routine daily operations.

[Ian Larson]

My nursery I just completed...

[Craig Sweet]

So if you ever need a large white cross or X you have some? 

[Joe Hancock]

So if you ever need a large white cross or X you have some? 

  x2