[Steve Kline]

I'm going there in May to play in the Carlton Woods Invitational. Has anyone played either course? What are you thoughts? It looks like typical stuff from the designers - Nicklaus and Fazio.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Steve,

I played the Fazio course a couple of weeks ago and enjoyed my time at the club.  Other than a few examples it was fairly uneventful from tee to green, but the greens were very interesting and putted as fast as any that I have played in the Houston area.  I have not played the Nicklaus course, but most that I have talked to prefer the Fazio.  If you have any free time on your trip let me know and we can get in a round or dinner/drinks sometime.

Kyle

[Sam Morrow]

Steve,

I have played the original Nicklaus course a few times and really don't feel a pressing need to go back. There are a few nice holes but for the most par it's classic Nicklaus, long with lots of forced carries. To me the best quality it holds is that you can play 18 in about 3 hours out there. I haven't played the Fazio course but as mentioned Kyle loved the greens and impressing Kyle is no easy task.

[JWL]

Sam
Since you have played the Nicklaus course more than I have, how many forced carries do you consider a lot?
Do you recall how many holes that you can't run the ball on to the green?
Thanks

[Sam Morrow]

Sam
Since you have played the Nicklaus course more than I have, how many forced carries do you consider a lot?
Do you recall how many holes that you can't run the ball on to the green?
Thanks

It seems like there are alteast 4 or 5 holes like that, I can only picture a few holes in my mind because it interested me that much.

[Steve Lang]

   Steve Kline,

Played the JN Signature course.. I found the greens the most challenging aspect of the course on the day we played, mostly due to their speeds and first time lack of knowledge of where to best hit to, and how they released when 2 years into their life..  getting there wasn't the issue.  I assume they'll be tricked up for you..

I've heard some like the Fazio 1) because houses haven't surrounded it yet.. and 2) as Kyle notes, the green complexes are challenging.

I don't think you'll be playing much ground game at CW unless you're in trouble..

With that said, the Woodlands CC's Player course has the third highest slope in TX (151), so come on out for a practice round..

p.s.  its too bad CW came along, as these two sites were to be among the WCC courses.. the last built in the Woodlands..

[Steve Kline]

In looking at the websites they looked pretty typical - nothing really stood out. I've never been a big fan of Nicklaus courses. We play three tournament rounds so hopefully we only play that one once. I mentioned to Kyle that I will probably come down on Sunday, May 11th. I don't think we have a practice round that day so maybe we can get a game together.

Fast greens will be  a challenge for me that time of year, because here in Cincinnati the season has only been under for a little under the month.

[Sam Morrow]

  Steve Kline,

Played the JN Signature course.. I found the greens the most challenging aspect of the course on the day we played, mostly due to their speeds and first time lack of knowledge of where to best hit to, and how they released when 2 years into their life..  getting there wasn't the issue.  I assume they'll be tricked up for you..

I've heard some like the Fazio 1) because houses haven't surrounded it yet.. and 2) as Kyle notes, the green complexes are challenging.

I don't think you'll be playing much ground game at CW unless you're in trouble..

With that said, the Woodlands CC's Player course has the third highest slope in TX (151), so come on out for a practice round..

p.s.  its too bad CW came along, as these two sites were to be among the WCC courses.. the last built in the Woodlands..

Steve that slope deal is a pretty random stat so I must ask who #1 and #2 are.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

  Steve Kline,

Played the JN Signature course.. I found the greens the most challenging aspect of the course on the day we played, mostly due to their speeds and first time lack of knowledge of where to best hit to, and how they released when 2 years into their life..  getting there wasn't the issue.  I assume they'll be tricked up for you..

I've heard some like the Fazio 1) because houses haven't surrounded it yet.. and 2) as Kyle notes, the green complexes are challenging.

I don't think you'll be playing much ground game at CW unless you're in trouble..

With that said, the Woodlands CC's Player course has the third highest slope in TX (151), so come on out for a practice round..

p.s.  its too bad CW came along, as these two sites were to be among the WCC courses.. the last built in the Woodlands..

Steve that slope deal is a pretty random stat so I must ask who #1 and #2 are.

I know that Texarkana Golf Ranch and Dallas National are both at the maximum 155.  The TPC at Craig Ranch is pretty high too I think (with a rating of 77.0  ).

[Trey Kemp]

Talk about random information, here it is Sam, I think Texarkana CC is technically in Arkansas so its not on the list.   

Top Twenty (And Ties) By USGA Slope Rating

155 -- Dallas National GC, Dallas
152 -- TPC at Craig Ranch, McKinney
151 -- Woodlands CC (Player), The Woodlands
147 -- Stonbridge Ranch CC (Dye), McKinney
147 -- The Golf Club at Castle Hills, Lewisville
147 -- The Club at Escondido, Horseshoe Bay
146 -- Stonebridge CC, McKinney
146 -- Gleneagles (King's), Plano
145 -- Boot Ranch, Fredericksburg
145 -- The Retreat, Cleburne
145 -- Crown Colony CC, Lufkin
144 -- Gleneagles (Queen's), Plano
144 -- Thorntree CC, DeSoto
143 -- Whispering Pines GC, Trinity
143 -- Doral Tesoro, Fort Worth
142 -- Gentle Creek GC, Prosper
142 -- Northern Challenge GC, Sherman
142 -- Royal Oaks CC, Dallas
142 -- Austin GC, Austin
142 -- Dallas Athletic Club (Blue), Mesquite
142 -- Golf Club of McKinney, McKinney
142 -- Sugar Tree GC, Dennis
142 -- Wild Horse GC, Denton

Top Twenty (And Ties) By USGA Course Rating

77.6 -- Stonebridge Ranch CC (Dye), McKinney
77.1 -- Dallas National GC, Dallas
77.0 -- TPC at Craig Ranch, McKinney
76.2 -- Whispering Pines GC, Trinity
76.2 -- Split Rail GC, Aledo
76.1 -- Wolfdancer GC, Lost Pines
75.9 -- Stonebridge CC, McKinney
75.8 -- Redstone GC (Tournament), Humble
75.7 -- The Golf Club at Castle Hills, Lewisville
75.5 -- Gentle Creek GC, Prosper
75.5 -- Cimarron Hills G & CC, Georgetown
75.4 -- The Club at Escondido, Horseshoe Bay
75.3 -- The Clubs of Cordillera Ranch, Boerne
75.2 -- Boot Ranch, Fredericksburg
75.1 -- Woodlands CC (Player), The Woodlands
75.1 -- TPC at Las Colinas, Irving
75.0 -- The Retreat, Cleburne
75.0 -- Quicksand GC, San Angelo
74.9 -- Gleneagles CC (King's), Plano
74.9 -- Gleneagles CC (Queen's), Plano
74.9 -- Thorntree CC, DeSoto
74.9 -- Dallas Athletic Club (Gold), Mesquite
74.9 -- Woodbridge GC, Wylie

[Trey Kemp]

Just in case anyone is interested I think I got the list from the Texas Golf Association.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Trey - wild list - thanks.
I bet no dubs would enjoy any of them...

They left of Houston National.
2 of the nines total near 8,000 yards.
The rating is silly high just like those others.

It is interesting to see that all the new "highly regarded" courses are near the top of that list.
Looks like a pissing contest to me.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

It is interesting to see that all the new "highly regarded" courses are near the top of that list.
Looks like a pissing contest to me.

I was thinking the exact same thing Mike.  Has anyone been to Boot Ranch?  I see it on both of those lists, but haven't heard much else about it.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

They left of Houston National.
2 of the nines total near 8,000 yards.
The rating is silly high just like those others.

The day I played Houston National it seemed much easier than that.  The fairways were as firm as 290 and the houses/silly mounds were there to throw back any of my wild shots  .

[Jeff Spittel]

I was thinking the exact same thing Mike.  Has anyone been to Boot Ranch?  I see it on both of those lists, but haven't heard much else about it.
[/quote]

Kyle,

I think Boot Ranch is Hal Sutton's new development in the hill country. Maybe if some of us feign interest in buying a house we can get on there. 

[Sam Morrow]

Talk about random information, here it is Sam, I think Texarkana CC is technically in Arkansas so its not on the list.   

Top Twenty (And Ties) By USGA Slope Rating

155 -- Dallas National GC, Dallas
152 -- TPC at Craig Ranch, McKinney
151 -- Woodlands CC (Player), The Woodlands
147 -- Stonbridge Ranch CC (Dye), McKinney
147 -- The Golf Club at Castle Hills, Lewisville
147 -- The Club at Escondido, Horseshoe Bay
146 -- Stonebridge CC, McKinney
146 -- Gleneagles (King's), Plano
145 -- Boot Ranch, Fredericksburg
145 -- The Retreat, Cleburne
145 -- Crown Colony CC, Lufkin
144 -- Gleneagles (Queen's), Plano
144 -- Thorntree CC, DeSoto
143 -- Whispering Pines GC, Trinity
143 -- Doral Tesoro, Fort Worth
142 -- Gentle Creek GC, Prosper
142 -- Northern Challenge GC, Sherman
142 -- Royal Oaks CC, Dallas
142 -- Austin GC, Austin
142 -- Dallas Athletic Club (Blue), Mesquite
142 -- Golf Club of McKinney, McKinney
142 -- Sugar Tree GC, Dennis
142 -- Wild Horse GC, Denton

Top Twenty (And Ties) By USGA Course Rating

77.6 -- Stonebridge Ranch CC (Dye), McKinney
77.1 -- Dallas National GC, Dallas
77.0 -- TPC at Craig Ranch, McKinney
76.2 -- Whispering Pines GC, Trinity
76.2 -- Split Rail GC, Aledo
76.1 -- Wolfdancer GC, Lost Pines
75.9 -- Stonebridge CC, McKinney
75.8 -- Redstone GC (Tournament), Humble
75.7 -- The Golf Club at Castle Hills, Lewisville
75.5 -- Gentle Creek GC, Prosper
75.5 -- Cimarron Hills G & CC, Georgetown
75.4 -- The Club at Escondido, Horseshoe Bay
75.3 -- The Clubs of Cordillera Ranch, Boerne
75.2 -- Boot Ranch, Fredericksburg
75.1 -- Woodlands CC (Player), The Woodlands
75.1 -- TPC at Las Colinas, Irving
75.0 -- The Retreat, Cleburne
75.0 -- Quicksand GC, San Angelo
74.9 -- Gleneagles CC (King's), Plano
74.9 -- Gleneagles CC (Queen's), Plano
74.9 -- Thorntree CC, DeSoto
74.9 -- Dallas Athletic Club (Gold), Mesquite
74.9 -- Woodbridge GC, Wylie

Thanks! Great list, I am surprised by a couple of the courses listed (most notably Castle Hills).

[Lou_Duran]

I thoroughly enjoyed the Nicklaus course at CW.  The forced carries didn't register as being extreme or unusual for a course in part of the country that has serious flood plain and wetland issues.  As to the ground game, the course has a fairly deep sand cap, so if there is not much there, there is probably not any elsewhere in the Houston area.  While I haven't played the Fazio course, my take is that they are fairly equal- as many people like one as the other.

Regarding Boot Ranch, it is a fantastic experience, though the routing is a bit difficult.  There is an alternative 9th hole for those wanting to play back to the clubhouse for nine holes.  Tee to green it is demanding with some difficult forced carries and a lot of natives coming into play.  By comparison, the greens are not heavily undulated and about the "truest" I've played.  I was told that Hal Sutton wanted Boot Ranch to become the Augusta National of that part of the country.  While it is much more rustic and naturally maintained, from my one play it appeared to be on its way.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

I thoroughly enjoyed the Nicklaus course at CW.  The forced carries didn't register as being extreme or unusual for a course in part of the country that has serious flood plain and wetland issues.  As to the ground game, the course has a fairly deep sand cap, so if there is not much there, there is probably not any elsewhere in the Houston area.  While I haven't played the Fazio course, my take is that they are fairly equal- as many people like one as the other.

Regarding Boot Ranch, it is a fantastic experience, though the routing is a bit difficult.  There is an alternative 9th hole for those wanting to play back to the clubhouse for nine holes.  Tee to green it is demanding with some difficult forced carries and a lot of natives coming into play.  By comparison, the greens are not heavily undulated and about the "truest" I've played.  I was told that Hal Sutton wanted Boot Ranch to become the Augusta National of that part of the country.  While it is much more rustic and naturally maintained, from my one play it appeared to be on its way.

Lou,

Thanks for the review of the Boot Ranch...it sounds like a great place.

I can say from my experience at Carlton Woods Fazio that it is the firmest course I have played in the typically soggy Houston area.  I played after a week of rain and the course was suprisingly dry and played fast.

[Bill Satterfield]

I've played them both twice.  I like the bunkering and elevation changes at Fazio better than Nicklaus, but both courses are fairly "even" in overall appeal.  

The Nicklaus course felt longer with several lengthy par fours while Fazio featured his typical spread of having a driveable par four all the way up to a 500+ yard par four.  

The Nicklaus course also features more water hazards than the Fazio course.  I lived in fear all day that my draw would turn into a hook since all but one of the water hazards are featured on the left side of the hole.

The signature hole at the Fazio course is probably the 16th due to the massive bunkering system that runs from tee to green, but the 18th is a classic Fazio finisher and I'm sure is a lot of members favorite as well.

A few things you can be sure of while at Carlton Woods:  The conditioning will be perfect, the greens will be fast, the service will be first class, and setting is relaxing.  

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