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John Kavanaugh

Who would know more about golf design?
« on: February 18, 2008, 12:21:48 PM »
A Hall of Fame tour pro, a published golf writer, a superintendant of a top 100 course, a golf rater for either Digest, Golfweek or Golf Magazine or any member of this board with more than 5000 posts?  Is it possible to be any of the above and not understand design enough to offer a valuable opinion in a consulting role?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 12:26:30 PM »
A Hall of Fame tour pro, a published golf writer, a superintendant of a top 100 course, a golf rater for either Digest, Golfweek or Golf Magazine or any member of this board with more than 5000 posts?  Is it possible to be any of the above and not understand design enough to offer a valuable opinion in a consulting role?
Its a trick question John, any of those could know more about golf design than the other. Question 2's answer is yes it is possible to not have a valuable opinion.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2008, 12:27:21 PM »
yes
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

John Kavanaugh

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2008, 12:27:48 PM »
Since I fall into the over 5000 post catagory, I will say that every single member of the Golf Hall of Fame, man or woman, knows more about golf design and would be a better consultant than me.  This of course does not include drainage, enviornmental or weather issues.  I would not say the same for any of the other catagories.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2008, 12:28:56 PM »
A Hall of Fame tour pro, a published golf writer, a superintendant of a top 100 course, a golf rater for either Digest, Golfweek or Golf Magazine or any member of this board with more than 5000 posts?  Is it possible to be any of the above and not understand design enough to offer a valuable opinion in a consulting role?

My vote would go for the super, but obviously it depends on the individuals.

As for the second question, I'd be surprised if many of us with more than 5,000 posts (excluding those already in the business, of course) would offer much of benefit to an actual architect.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2008, 12:33:15 PM »
I'm looking at this from a would I go play a course perspective.  A perfect example is would you play Biltmore because Tommy consulted with Forest.  I hate to say it but even this weekend I was telling a guy that he needs to see Kinderlou Forrest and he was excited it was a Davis Love design.  I remember playing the course and imagining where Davis would hit his drives.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2008, 12:33:59 PM »
John,

I think that in this day and age where the playing pros are hitting with such precision that they no longer require the same level of shot making skills or understanding of playing for position than was required 30 years ago. So the answer here is yes.

How much is the Super guided/told in regards to setting up a course for a big national or international event and how much is left up to him to rely on his knowledge and understanding of the game. I don't know but if the course set up is dictated then the answer would also be yes.

A rated would surely need some to do his job and hopefully after so long a time spent on here something would have stuck so I would say no.

 

John Kavanaugh

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2008, 12:36:56 PM »
A Hall of Fame tour pro, a published golf writer, a superintendant of a top 100 course, a golf rater for either Digest, Golfweek or Golf Magazine or any member of this board with more than 5000 posts?  Is it possible to be any of the above and not understand design enough to offer a valuable opinion in a consulting role?

My vote would go for the super, but obviously it depends on the individuals.

As for the second question, I'd be surprised if many of us with more than 5,000 posts (excluding those already in the business, of course) would offer much of benefit to an actual architect.

George,

Why a super?

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2008, 12:45:05 PM »
Barney;  I would suggest the categories are irrelevant.  It is strictly an individual matter.  We all have seen the differences in courses"designed" by tour pros including some hall of famers.  The excellence of the design varies widely.  I have worked with a significant number of superintendents.  Some have no concept of architecture but are great at maintaining courses.  The varying knowledge levels of raters has been discussed innumerable times.  5000 posts is an indication that the poster has a lot of time on their hands.  Golf writers also vary in their knowledge and interest.  You are probably correct that the average player will have greater interest if he hears that a known tour pro is involved in a design.  That's why they get the big fees for putting their name on a course.  But that is an indication of market power, not skill level.

Scott Weersing

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2008, 12:49:54 PM »
I would nominate the "published golf writer" as least likely to contribute a valuable opinion.

A writer often is just giving his opinion, like or dislike,  about a golf course. It takes a lot of thought to take an opinion of one course and explain how to recreate a good feature on a new course. Most writers have not visited well-designed courses, but rather they visit resort courses. Writers often interview directors of golf to learn about a course. I would add director of golf to the category of not contributing a valuable opinion.

I imagine the conversation going like this:

Golf writer, "I really like the waterfalls at Trump National. We should add one behind the 17th green here."

GCA, "That's an interesting idea" (just to be polite)

Golf writer, "Do you think the owner would approve it?"

GCA, "I sure hope not. We have a limited budget here."

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2008, 12:58:57 PM »
George,

Why a super?

I would guess that, all things being equal, someone with a devotion to maintaining playing conditions would have the best knowledge of how the course itself influences play. They would also be infinitely more likely to understand how construction influences play as well.

It also doesn't hurt that most of the supers on here seem to be the voice of reason, relatively speaking.

As for your "where would I go play" perspective, that would depends almost entirely on the individual in question. I don't think I could place them into categories for generalizations.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2008, 01:10:31 PM »
I would guess that, all things being equal, someone with a devotion to maintaining playing conditions would have the best knowledge of how the course itself influences play. They would also be infinitely more likely to understand how construction influences play as well.

It also doesn't hurt that most of the supers on here seem to be the voice of reason, relatively speaking.

As for your "where would I go play" perspective, that would depends almost entirely on the individual in question. I don't think I could place them into categories for generalizations.

George,

I agree with all of that and would add that superintendents are also able to give quality advice about whether proposed features can be maintained in the way they need to be. ie., if the course is intended to be fast and firm, will that be attainable?

And more importantly, they will know whether the course will be maintainable at the probable budget level.

Re. choosing between those categories for a course to play, I think there's so much overlap in between them that they are irrelevant.

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2008, 01:13:13 PM »
The response  dynamics of your question might be different if you had used 6,000 GCA posts as the cutoff line.   ;) Adjusted for inflation, of course.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 01:23:33 PM »
In light of Mr. Pont's interview... what is "know more"?

My guess is there are people in every category who know more. Just not that many. Those who have made it a focus of study would know more. But as with many Ivory towers, practical applicators are even fewer.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

John Kavanaugh

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 01:30:34 PM »
Could anyone cite one example of how a consulting tour pro screwed up a design?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2008, 01:54:57 PM »
If any one of them had spent six months on a construction project somewhere watching a course get built, he would most likely understand more than the rest of them put together.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2008, 02:02:16 PM »
Could anyone cite one example of how a consulting tour pro screwed up a design?

Do you mean from scratch or in a modification? If the latter, some people might mention Arnie's name at Pebble Beach.

Bob

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2008, 03:09:56 PM »
Could anyone cite one example of how a consulting tour pro screwed up a design?

Jeff Brauer posted an entertaining story about a consulting pro and a greenside bunker awhile back. I can't remember who won the argument, but if the pro did, he would have made the course less interesting, albeit in a manner few would have noticed.

Shades of gray, I suppose.

BTW, did Tom D just invite anyone with over 5,000 posts to spend 6 months on a construction project? :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

TEPaul

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2008, 03:44:54 PM »
"Is it possible to be any of the above and not understand design enough to offer a valuable opinion in a consulting role?"

Well, John, that's a very good question, and my answer to it would be the remark one of my DIs at Parris Island made over and over again;

"It's probable but not possible."

That remark is particularly poignant to me because about the 42nd time he said it he actually caught me snickering at him and he hit me so hard I fell sideways onto the deck and cut my mouth.  ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2008, 05:21:06 PM »
JK,

I think its possible that if they were all there, it would be like the SNL take off on knowledge game shows like Jeapory.  However, the contestants were asked to answer what a majority of high school seniors answered, rather than answer with the actual facts.  In their version, it was actually correct that the Civil War occurred in 1958 because that's what the HS students thought.

I am not quite sure why that popped into my mind. I guess it was just too open again! :o
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2008, 05:29:22 PM »
I think that each profession has it's own perception of golf, and none has an advantage over the other in terms of knowledge.

The practicing architect would know the most about golf design, and I am not so sure that he has to have played good golf at any time in his life to design great golf courses.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2008, 07:09:57 PM »
Could anyone cite one example of how a consulting tour pro screwed up a design?

Do you mean from scratch or in a modification? If the latter, some people might mention Arnie's name at Pebble Beach.

Bob

Why Arnie at Pebble?  What did he ever do?

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2008, 09:02:34 PM »
Tom D's comments certainly make me feel better about the job's I've spent my last few seasons working on.  I guess I could say the same for Phillipe and Ryan along with others I'm not yet aware of on this site.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2008, 09:29:58 PM »
Tom D said:

"If any one of them had spent six months on a construction project somewhere watching a course get built, he would most likely understand more than the rest of them put together."

When it comes to matters relating to golf course architecture, I'll defer to Tom Doak every single time, obviously. But I will say this:

In my past life as a sometime writer for television biographies/documentaries, I spent six months in a series of rooms taking part in the making of a one hour sports biography, from pre-production to shooting to rough editing to client approvals to recording voice over to the final cut.  In terms of my writing, it turned out pretty well, i.e. I was nominated for a Gemini, our equivalent of the Emmy. In terms of the project as a whole, I saw how every single day and almost ever single minute is about facing and overcoming challenges (technical and otherwise) and coming to hard-won compromises and sometimes difficult decisions.

It was a great and important experience (and one that a writer rarely gets, mostly because most producers don't want another pest in the room). But you know what? I'm not sure it's an experience that made me a better writer, or a better 'conceptualizer' of ideas. I'm actually almost sure that it made me worse, in my eyes at least.

And I'm not so sure that writers should be 'exposed' to all those challenges/compromises -- first off, I could've intuited most of them beforehand; secondly, there's one place and one stage only during which a project can at least try to reach some ideal/pure form...and that's in the writing and the writing stage.

In short, I think that it's best if the writing stage can at least allow for the possibility of dreaming big dreams and of seeking perfection....while knowing full well that only a small fraction of the ideal might survive the 'production phase'.

There's an old saying - "In matters of virtue experience is a vice."
 
Peter
« Last Edit: February 18, 2008, 09:32:59 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who would know more about golf design?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2008, 09:45:26 PM »
My odds on who would know more about golf design:

Hall of fame golf pro        5-1
Published golf writer      25-1
Super top 100 course    15-1
Course rater Golfweek    20-1
Course rater Golf Digest 25-1
Course rater Golf Mag     35-1
GCA poster 5000 posts     8-1