The 8th at Riviera

[David Stamm]

I just heard Feherty describe the left fw as obsolete now in this day and age. Here's my take: Today's pin placement is front right. Granted, the hole is somewhat shorter coming from the right fw, but, the angle for this particular pin placement coming from the right is much more awkward despite a 9 iron or wedge coming in. The pin placement determines the angle of approach and therefore determines the fw chosen. The approach would be longer if the player played short of the bunker, but then the angle coming in, depending on the pin placement, would be easier. Thomas intended for the weak player to play left, the average player to hit right and the tiger to challenge the bunker on the left and hit a power fade and really shorten the hole. Is Feherty right? Is the hole obsolete? I don't think so, not because of a distance issue, but because of an angle issue. A smart player will know where the pin is and then choose the best angle, ie, the best fw to come in at. What say you?

[Ian Larson]

I absolutely agree. Those fairways are all about the pin position. I dont know why the hell he would say the left is obsolete! IMHO the right fairway option always bores me except for the shot at a good pin over the barranca. The fairway itself looks like an aircraft carrier to me. The left fairway is always fun and a challenge to place a well struck drive given the bunker placement and fairway width. The false front and where the right side rolls off into the barranca are Fazio/Marzolf creations. They look very out of place and inconsistent to Thomas.

[Ryan Farrow]

The only way the left fairway is obsolete is because it lacks handicap accessibility, unlike the right FW option. 

[Daryn_Soldan]

I took Feherty's comment to mean that the left fairway is unused and "obsolete" for the tour players. When a player of that caliber can hit an iron off the tee like Mickelson did today and be left with a 9-iron or wedge into the green, the angles tend to have very little to do with decision making. In fact, I've witnessed on many occasions where good players would rather have an approach angled more over the trouble than with it located laterally. This is particularly true with shorter clubs where precise distance control is almost a given for these players. In the case of the 8th at Riviera, the right fairway provides more margin for error while still leaving a short iron or wedge, so why would a pro go down the left side?

That being said, for the rest of us in the golfing world, its most likely worth our while to analyze the hole location and choose a route accordingly. So maybe the left fairway is just obsolete this week and not so much the other 51 weeks of the year.

-Daryn

[Michael Robin]

Here's the problem with the current configuration of the hole - The right fairway is too big and there is very little risk with that route and a 2-club shorter reward for your second shot. The right side needs to be a gamble, a difficult tee shot that carries over a significant amount of Barranca to a small area of fairway that also punishes a tee shot that is not accurate with Barranca left and OB right. Then you stand on that tee and look at where the pin is and determine if the better angle that day is worth the risk.

The other thing that is necessary and hopefully someday will be restored properly is returning the Barranca to its former gnarley self. When Thomas routed the course, he took advantage of this wash/river that runs thru the property and sited 7 holes on it. It was a hazard that was not to be messed with or you would pay a steep price if you didn't execute. What is currently the false front should be a hard edge drop into the wash that would also wrap tight around the right side of the green. Then you would have 2 scary forced carries to navigate if you went right and an appropriate reward if you pulled it off. Now you would have some things to think about when you stand on the tee trying to figure out the best route that day.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

This is a typical problem we see today.  In a desire to lengthen the hole, the tee was moved to a spot was makes the left fairway undesirable and in some cases unreachable.  Sometimes one must drive over trees to reach the left fairway, one of the fun fairways on the course.  M. Robin is right about the construction of the fairway on the right, it was unsuccessful in many ways.
But the tees orginally were split between fairways and thus you had more of an option.  Today the tees are too far right.  Geoff spoke once to Charlie Seaver and he indicated that he would use either fairway, depending on the hole placement and how he was playing.  Seaver of course was the father of Tom, great amateur and friend of George Thomas.
Michelson using iron and then hitting wedge!  Where are they going to go with tees to keep this course long enought?

[Adam Clayman]

The height of the trees also seemed to be a factor in decision making for us less skilled. Would cutting down one or two of the trees, closet to the teeing ground, increase the temptation for an average player?

O/T but, is the kikuyu laying down and is all that green seen on TV, winter Rye? They were speculating that the benign rough would lower scores. From this vantage point, the course is showing itself quite well with the higher scores. All credit should go to Mr. Thomas, for that, no?

[James Bennett]

The original design was for the shorter hitter to go left (as they couldn't make the carry to the right) and for the longest hitter to also want to go left.  However, the shot to the right (if you can hit the ball say 225 yards carry) is much easier, and oriented towards the current tees (as Michale Robin commented).

One of the cool things about the hole is the discussions on the tee with your team-mate (assuming you are either sharing a cart or a caddy). 'Which way are we going today?' is the question.  I expect it requires a hefty tip for the caddy if one goes left, and the other goes right.

Lynn, the greens look pretty good on TV, nice and firm.  If only we could get the pros playing say a 7-iron rather than a pitching wedge then the green and George Thomas's strategy would return.  Is the left fairway too long as well?  Should it cut off earlier and narrow into the barranca?

PS  the barrancas are quite fearsome from my experience.  They could be worse, but they are a more severe penalty than a Riviera bunker.

James B

[Michael Christensen]

guess Phil sees the board......went down the left today...Feherty now stating it is a great play and leaves a great angle!

[rjsimper]

"The risk off the tee results in six feet for birdie" - Nantz
"Real strategy golf" - Faldo

[Michael Robin]

And the guy who went right made birdie and the guy who went left did not. There is still a good golf hole buried under all the mistakes.

[James Bennett]

And the guy who went right made birdie and the guy who went left did not. There is still a good golf hole buried under all the mistakes.

Michael you understate the position.  A great golf hole is buried under all the mistakes.  A good golf hole is there currently.

[David Stamm]

Here's the problem with the current configuration of the hole - The right fairway is too big and there is very little risk with that route and a 2-club shorter reward for your second shot. The right side needs to be a gamble, a difficult tee shot that carries over a significant amount of Barranca to a small area of fairway that also punishes a tee shot that is not accurate with Barranca left and OB right. Then you stand on that tee and look at where the pin is and determine if the better angle that day is worth the risk.

The other thing that is necessary and hopefully someday will be restored properly is returning the Barranca to its former gnarley self. When Thomas routed the course, he took advantage of this wash/river that runs thru the property and sited 7 holes on it. It was a hazard that was not to be messed with or you would pay a steep price if you didn't execute. What is currently the false front should be a hard edge drop into the wash that would also wrap tight around the right side of the green. Then you would have 2 scary forced carries to navigate if you went right and an appropriate reward if you pulled it off. Now you would have some things to think about when you stand on the tee trying to figure out the best route that day.

Michael, I completely agree. That was the way Thomas originally envisioned it.

[James Bennett]

The 'backstop' depicted at the left of the green would have been an interesting feature.  I presume the shorter hitter that went left from the tee would have used that slope to run a second shot towards the green whilst playing away from the barranca.

I don't recall any evidence of that slope today.

James B