Threads like this are the main reason I read these (but boy does it take alot of time). I find it interesting to get a glimmer of what others like/dislike. Does this mean I have an open mind - only to a certain extent. By now, I have a pretty good understanding of what I favor. Is it what I design? Not really. Some design for themselves and let the chips fall where they may. I don't operate in that areana. It's not that I don't want to, it's more a sense that I have to be responsible with other peoples money. Before anybody gets their panties in a bunch (which seems to happen alot on this site) the above has absolutely no bearing on any other designer. As dad used to say, 'if everyone liked the same thing, we'd all be fighting over the same girl".
This thread started out as querry of contrasting styles. It seems to have gone further and included strategy and critique. Can the two (sytle and strategy) be divorced or are they bound together? Can there ever be unbiased critque? To the 1st, I think they can, to the 2nd, I don't think there can.
To illustrate the 1st, I had proposed in the #10 Augusta thread that it would be interesting
to change the bunker style at ANGC from the moon craters they presently have to the CP style. Don't move any of them, just reshape them. The strategy would remain intact, the aesthics would change. Granted this is eye candy, but I would find it personally more appealing. When I played Pasatiempo (sp?) 5 or 6 yrs ago, I was disappointed that the bunkers were so bland for a Mac course. Now that TD has restored them, I would hazard that I would like the course more. Do I like everything TD does, no, but this doesn't preclude me from thinking that I might appreciate the above. On the same trip, I did have the chance to play The Valley Club where the bunkers had just been redone and was glad as they had such a visual impact on the course.
The problem we run into with a discussion like this is that almost never will we get the chance to see 2 designers tackle the same piece of property. But, note how many times owners of side-by-side courses will either A) get 2 or more different architects to provide variety (Bandon is an example), or B) instruct the architect to do the courses in completely different motifs (World Woods, Grand Cypress). Once in a while, even the same architect will end up with varying 18's when doing a 36 hole project just for variety.
It has been said previously that today's access to media allows golfers to be better educated than in the past. I think this has changed the Internet generation of architects and is what is differenting their work for that of the Modern age architects. It also could be a reason in the future we see less emphasis placed on Branded architects and courses are judged more on thier own merits. (although don't expect this to show up in the "rankings" as the leemings just regurgitate what they think others think -but don't me started on that).
My second point, can the ever be unbiased critique, the reason I don't think there can is like it or not, everyone has there own person preferences and these will subconsciencely creep into anyones critique. Take TD's attempt at honest critiqu in his CG. He acknowledges his bias toward courses that suit his game and against Modern design. But I do give him credit for making the attempt. I do find it interesting how many people will defer their own judgement to someone they preceive as an expert. I have asked members "do you like that?" and have gotten "I don't know, you're the expert" as a response. Yes, I'm an expert - expert at knowing what I like, if I was an expert at knowing what you liked, I wouldn't ask the question.
Sometimes I think people don't express their opinions because they don't have the fortitude to stand up to anyone who has a different one. Almost as bad is those who get defensive and feel they have to blast anyone who disagrees with there opinion. Sure, it hurts when you get critized, but as TD inferred, you need a thick skin to be in this business. At least we architects put it out there to be criticized. I wonder how well some of the vocal critics would take it if they produced a real course, with real world constraints.
I used to read the reviewer's comments that Ron Whitten would send out with the course rankings. When I read stuff like "it's in a housing developement" or has great views of...", I quickly gave up on caring about rankings. To me, I look at each hole as it's own entity. It doesn't matter what is going on outside course because it is something the architect has no control over and doesn't impact how the hole is played. But if it influences raters, then I don't have any use for them. And the criteria alone sets in bias. This became painfully evident when they started tinkering to get the results they wanted - points for walking, points for tradition... what does this have to do with how a hole is designed? Nothing.
So, please, tell us what you like and dislike and why. If you don't agree, just say why. Accept that it is entirely possible for someone to like something for the exact reason you detest it (and vice-versa). As designers, we are big boys and know that it is impossible to please all the people all the time so we (I) don't try to. I just follow my conviction and try to "do the right thing". I am probably also my own worst critic but I have learned to keep that to myself. seems there are way to many that will take self-criticism as "he screwed up".
I had an owner ask me the other day, with the supt present, (I'm doing a new hole on adjacent land on a course that was redone (except the greens) looking back on other 18, what would I have done differently. When I said I wished we had done fescue edges on the bunkers (it is a pure sand site) because the bluegrass just looked to manicured for what I was after. I saw terror in the eyes of the super and the owner said although it would look good, he would be worried about his regulars finding it too difficult. Then he asked mewhich holes did I think were the weakest. Luckily, we concurred. Then he asked which was my favorite, he was surprised with my answer. Ask yourself, if you had been in my shoes, what would you have said/done?
Tom Paul, didn't someone recently try to build one out in west Texas? Mike N maybe?
If we followed your prescription, does that preclude all forced carries? Or is there some distance we should expect all golfers to be able to achieve? Afterall, I seem to remember areas of gunch between tee and fairway at St A. but not between fairway and green. So, if we do allow for some forced carry, do we only allow it off the tee and not to the green (the burn fronting #1 not withstanding)? What about in the middle of the hole (#18)? I guess like the definitiion of "is", I would need to know your definition of "distance".
Anthony, Having not seen Castle Course, what about the greens made you realise your not as open minded as you thought you were?