Riviera and some high numbers....

[Bob_Huntley]

As an old member at Riviera, I cannot remember five DQ's and Withdrawals together with scores of 7,8,10 and 11 over par in a round

Has the course been toughened up that much?

Help me out, what is going on?

Bob

[Will MacEwen]

I read that the players who went late/early faced strong winds the whole time, which might account for some of it.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

I don't know the nuances of the greens of Riviera that well but I saw some balls on some of those greens doing some pretty unusual things like breaking massive amounts and just basically keeping on trucking. Obviously the players are aware of the severity of some of those areas because the directions they were attempting to hit chips and such were some pretty radical directions (in relation to the pin) one rarely sees on Tour golf. Obviously those greens are pretty damn quick, probably too quick for some of the slopes and contours.

And of course it looks like that ultra amazing #10 continues to strut its stuff. It appears if they miss that green hole high right even within a few yards of it, getting the ball on the green and making par is a tremendous challenge. I mean seriously, how cool is that, when you're lying 1 just hole high right of that green and you know you have to really do a few fairly spectacular things just to make 4? 

[rjsimper]

The high/low disparity was pointed to as the luck of the draw - Thursday morning was calm and the afternoon got pretty windy (not atypical for any locale) but the reverse happened Friday meaning that the PGA Tour, in it's attempt at fairness, actually screwed the guys who got late Thursday and early Friday times.

That being said, it probably still doesn't excuse 78s from some of the better players.  I recall the course being firmer last year so maybe it then becomes even more of a mystery.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

Another interesting facet of Riviera this week is it or some of its holes are creating an ultra wide "scoring sprectrum" which is something that lies at the base of Bob Crosby and my test of the quality of golf course architecture and interest.

[Jon Spaulding]

The winds have been brisk the last couple of days. More importantly, the direction has been atypical.

On Thursday they were of the Santa Ana variety, which is uncommon in February, and roughly the opposite of the traditional west wind coming off the ocean.

Yesterday, winds were more out of the southwest, but very shifty. I was able to play at my place which is about 60 miles from Riviera and saw some holes playing in a manner with which I was not familiar.

Most would agree that wind direction/speed is a welcome variable at any course and creates interest. I think that's all we're seeing at Riviera the last couple of days; a great course with varying conditions!

[David Druzisky]

If it is actually wind at the core of why some scores are so high, what does that say about the course now vs back when it was new and the wind was more prominent?

Has the lessening of wind (an assumption but probably an easy one) offset the near dissapearance of those wonderful nursing slopes around and into the greens (kikuyu grass).   Hole #4 for instance.

[Bill_McBride]

Riviera # 6 green - it was wonderful to see Chad Campbell play the slope just perfectly to two putt from the front of the green, around the bunker to a back pin.  Fun fun fun.

Kikuyu - is there any worse grass in the universe?  It's absolutely detestable at La Cumbre in Santa Barbara, where the ground game is totally absent as a result of the velcro surrounding every green.

I'm going to tape Sunday's round so I can see how the field plays #10.  That little harlot or whatever Jim Murray called it, one of the greatest lines about golf course architecture ever!

[Joel_Stewart]

68-64 for Mickelson is some score.  I read he played in the morning both days and avoided the wind which was fairly brisk in the afternoon.

The course has been lengthened over the years.  Fazio/Marzoff have been actively involved in the course which surprisingly hasn't been mentioned very much recently.

Last time I played there (4 or 5 years ago) the 9th hole had been lengthened and it played fairly long.   I think I hit 4 iron or so into the green.  Yesterday, Mickelson hit gap wedge into the hole.

[Brad Klein]

TEP,

am curious about your evidence as to the ultra-wide scoring spectrum. I've searched in vain through through the PGA and NorthernTrust.Com Websites and see nothing about stats on a hole-by-hole or course-wide basis. Very frustrating, unless I'm missing something obvious. All the readily-accessible data are on player performance, not golf course performance. Quite the bias.

[BCrosby]

Brad -

The PGA used to publish that scoring data. They don't any more but there are other sources. I'll try to find them and post them.

If anyone else knows where to get it, please let us know. It's out there somewhere.

I've looked at scoring spreads for the 10th in past years. As the TEP Conjecture would predict, they are remarkable. Lots of low scores, lots of high scores. Indicators of a very good strategic hole.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Brad:

You got me. I was just looking at Bob Huntley's initial post. I don't know what caused it---eg the weather, rain, wind, green speed, architecture or whatever. But it should be looked at because we really do think a wide scoring spectrum on holes (below par to far above it) is a pretty good indicator and barometer of good architecture and interesting architecture. In that equation or differential the real key is not exactly the high scores but the low ones. In other words, that has just got to indicate the "risk/reward" concept in its most impactful form.

[Brad Klein]

I just wish the PGA Tour would do what Augusta National does for the Masters and the USGA does for the U.S. Open -- publish live, hole-by-hole data on their tournamenmt Website.

[Jim Nugent]

Phil has a 4 stroke lead, despite hitting only 43% of the fairways.  This is not unusual at Riviera.  When Sabattini won, he was under 50%.  IIRC, last year's winner was around 50% as well. 

You apparently don't have to hit fairways to win there.  But do you need to hit your drive in the right places, even if that's not in the fairway?  Or can pro's drive the ball pretty much any old place there, and still rip the course apart? 

[George Pazin]

Jim -

I think I remember reading somewhere that the kikuyu rough isn't that tough at this time of the year, so it may simply depend on the time of year.

Joel -

I don't think anyone can ever play both mornings. I'm reasonably certain played morning Thursday and afternoon Friday, which by meteorological fluke ending up being the best time to play.

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For the conspiracy theorists out there, can you come up with a better way of managing tee times? Do you think they should try to forecast wind and pair it with play times?