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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 01:36:15 PM »
Jeff:

Lots of my early work has undulating tees, because we weren't that focused on making them flat.  :)  And Urbina has been experimenting with his undulating tees for a lot longer than Bobby Jones.  I just hope we have more to offer for "great design ideas of the 21st century". 

Besides, as I said, I really doubt that the back tees at Chambers Bay are undulating now -- and if they are, I'll bet you 100 bucks they're flat in 2015.  (Of course you may not be able to buy a good dinner for $100 in seven more years.)

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 01:37:34 PM »
None of the tees I had any hand in finishing were flat, per se. 

Smooth is the apt term, but you gotta have some tilt to move the H2O.
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Ian Andrew

Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 01:48:14 PM »
Adam,

A crown is not as much an issue for me.

Am I guilty of not getting what people are talking about - because it doesn't sound like crowned tees.

For example, the tee at one of the holes at Pete Dye Golf Club (wish I could remember which hole - short par tree) has intentional sidehill lies for tee locations.
These are clear hanginging lies - is that what people want?


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2008, 02:11:43 PM »
Ian,

If my memory serves correctly, C.B. Macdonald originally build crowned tees at Natonal Golf Links of America, specificaly so players could choose a preferred lie. They didn't last. 
jeffmingay.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2008, 02:38:09 PM »
Jeff:

Lots of my early work has undulating tees, because we weren't that focused on making them flat.  :)  And Urbina has been experimenting with his undulating tees for a lot longer than Bobby Jones.  I just hope we have more to offer for "great design ideas of the 21st century". 

Besides, as I said, I really doubt that the back tees at Chambers Bay are undulating now -- and if they are, I'll bet you 100 bucks they're flat in 2015.  (Of course you may not be able to buy a good dinner for $100 in seven more years.)

Tom,

I tried a rolling tee exactly twice in my career.  Both times the Owner or his superintendent overruled it - at Opryland in 1990 and Tangleridge in 1993.  I used it as a design counterpoint or conversation piece.  I heard Bobby talk about it almost ten years ago, so as I said, he has been thinking about it for a long time, whether the idea was original to him or borrowed.  I don't know if this is the first time the idea came out on the ground intentionally.  We have all seen a lot of unlevel tees that weren't meant to be that way due to poor construction/compaction. ;D

I agree that it may be too far out there for the USGA, but if we make any kind of long term bet, you can set the value, and I pick the currency, given the free fall of the dollar. ;)

BTW, as far as new design ideas, I do recall Fuzzy Zoeller preaching the virtues of the "Water Chipping Hazard" purposely built to hold about 2" of water as far back as 1984.  I don't think that qualifies as the best new design idea of the 21st Century either!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2008, 09:21:20 PM »
Ian, Whether it was intentional, or not, I can recall many older courses, before the recent evolution of maintenance practices, having crowned teeing grounds. The narrower the teeing ground the less avoidance was possible. With the constant increase in players lengths, off the tee, over time, the added variety of having a few uneven teeing grounds, to challenge a great player like Wayne Freeman, is not too much to ask. Is it?
 This is one of those questions which highlights what people prefer. Over-coming what a golfer doesn't like is at the heart of golfing one's ball.

I have no problem with teeing grounds being a bit uneven, Adam (spelled with a 'd'), as long as they evolve  naturally, and not too severely. But, if an architect 'builds in' extra angles, he gives better players an advantage. Let everyone begin from a level playing field.

 

Ray Richard

Re: Non-flat tees: "Is that too retro for you?"
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2008, 07:42:31 AM »
 If you were doing a five year projection for a golf design or construction firm would you add the following? 

  xxxxxx inc. will provide expert tee distressing, using random swirls, bumps and bubbles. We will tranform your synthetic looking, flat tee boxes into artistic platforms of varied contour. Golfers will be challenged to find the most severely graded footing to provide maximum challenge to an otherwise easy game. A discount will be extended to clubs who utilized our visually disturbing laser grading services in the past.

 Is this the next big thing in the golf business?

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