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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2008, 06:01:51 PM »
Doug R:  I think the "change" you see in Mike Hurdzan's designs is the influence of Dana Fry, who left Fazio in part because he wanted to do bolder things than Fazio would let him do.

The Golden Age was full of such guys:  MacKenzie was a bit too wild for Colt, George Thomas was clearly thinking outside the box, and then there were Fownes and Crump and Hugh Wilson and C.B. Macdonald.  All of those guys were clearly revolutionaries ... but then it was easier for them to be a revolutionary in those days.  Anybody could be a golf design revolutionary in Latvia or Senegal today, just by going there.

Bob C:  Years ago the ASGCA together with USA Today published a ranking of golf courses -- thankfully now abandoned -- in which nearly every member architect got a token choice of their own design.  Anyway, they also listed the three most influential designs of the modern era, and RTJ II insisted on putting Peachtree on there, which I could never see -- PARTICULARLY since he had Peachtree on there instead of Augusta National.  I've always seen Peachtree as an extension of Augusta's ideals, which only makes since when you consider the founder of both was the other Bob Jones.  But I guess you could make the case that the use of water at Peachtree by Trent Jones was a precursor to the changes at 11 and 15 and 16 at Augusta that made Augusta different than its original design.

Tom,

I agree that Hurdzan changed when he took Dana on. He still does some of the "modest" work in the midwest, sometimes with different associates doing that work.  I believe Dana was brought on specifically to raise Mike's profile, and it worked.

As to the USA Today list, I remember it.  If my memory is correct, it may have had some value in promoting modern courses as different enough to have a separate list.  I know it wasn't done on any point system, but I'm not sure in those days lists had to justify itself as much as they do now.  USA Today wanted a list, ASGCA was happy to provide one, based on a bunch of guys who probably "knew" the best courses of the modern era, hidden gems notwithstanding.

You might recall a month ago, Brad Klein took me to task for suggesting that it was the first list to differentiate the modern era from the classic.  Do you recall the date of that list?  I was either still with K and N or so new in my own practice that no one asked me for my best course for inclusion, which would put it as early as 1980 or so, and as late as the early 1990's.

In either case, ANGC would never be considered part of the modern era, and Peachtree would barely squeek in.  I was thinking 1950 was the cutoff, but it may have been pre and post WWII.  Like you, I did notice the first green was a bit different than others - not only elevated, but also much smaller making for a difficult recovery pitch for me from the left rough. 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 06:08:17 PM »
Jeff:

I believe they did the first USA Today list at the meeting in LaQuinta which I attended with Pete Dye in 1983 (when we were working on the planning for PGA West).  But I'm not positive of that ... they might have been revising the first edition for a second at that time.

You are right, Augusta would not have been eligible for the most influential courses list on the modern side.  What happened was they didn't list it on the classic side -- they listed Peachtree on the modern side and indirectly assigned it the credit for inventing the Augusta style.  I am not positive which were the three most influential "classic" courses -- I think Cypress Point and Pine Valley were both there, but don't remember what was the third one.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:10:20 PM by Tom_Doak »

Patrick Hodgdon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 06:45:58 PM »
Tommy W:  Dana Fry has been working with Hurdzan for more than 10 years, and I believe the courses you mention were also projects for which Dana was primarily responsible, but I'm not sure of that.  I am really not a big fan of their work based on the couple of courses that I've seen ...

so, Doug, I can't agree or disagree with your statement about the quality of their work.


From what I know having caddied for Dana several times at Calusa Pines, Dr. Hurdzan didn't have a big impact at Calusa and only made 1 or 2 trips to the property so Tom's assessment that the more recent projects are Fry designs would seem to be true.

Also most of their work is overseas these days. 2 courses in Italy, 2-3 in China, 1 in Dubai, and 1 on the Azores Islands off of Portugal. From what I heard Dana and one of the younger designers are doing most of the traveling and designing. Next time I see Dana I'll be sure to ask him which course was his "first" in terms of being the primary designer.

Tom out of curiosity which couple of their courses have you seen that didn't impress you much?
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Doug Ralston

Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2008, 09:08:48 PM »
I have not seen 'The Honors' mentioned with Pete Dye. Awfully great course to leave out so persistently.


I have played a lot of Hurdzans earlier attempts [before Fry]. Some of them play quite nicely IMHO. Of course, my experience being what it is, my standards are likely a bit lower. Nonetheless, I will reiterate that I have played no bad Hurdzan courses.

Doug

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2008, 09:06:56 AM »
Tom/Jeff -

I've spoken with Brad Klein a couple of times about the break date between the moderns and classics in the Golfweek lists.

I have urged him to begin the modern list at the end of WWII. That brings  P'tree, Firestone, NCR, Doral and some others with the moderns. Which is where they should be.

Ranking NGLA vs. ANGC is hard enough.

But ranking NGLA and Firestone in the same batch is crazy.

I think's Brad's classic / modern distinction is a very good idea, btw. Other magazines should adopt it.

Bob

Mike_Cirba

Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2008, 09:20:55 AM »
Jim Blaukovitch is a lower budget architect working primarily in eastern PA who has done any number of reasonably affordable public courses, and a few private ones.

On almost all of them he has some quite good holes, and seems to have a knack for finding interesting par threes.   I'm not nearly as fond of his redesign work on existing courses.

His first course is about a half hour north of Scranton up near Tunkhannock called Stonehedge GC, and it's arguably the best he's ever done.   The back nine, in particularly, has some stirring stuff.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2008, 09:35:49 AM »
Jeff:

I believe they did the first USA Today list at the meeting in LaQuinta which I attended with Pete Dye in 1983 (when we were working on the planning for PGA West).  But I'm not positive of that ... they might have been revising the first edition for a second at that time.

You are right, Augusta would not have been eligible for the most influential courses list on the modern side.  What happened was they didn't list it on the classic side -- they listed Peachtree on the modern side and indirectly assigned it the credit for inventing the Augusta style.  I am not positive which were the three most influential "classic" courses -- I think Cypress Point and Pine Valley were both there, but don't remember what was the third one.

Funny how memory works......I recalled the basic era and being in the desert, but thought I was in Pheonix when they were discussing the list.  The La Quinta meeting was actually Feb. 1984. This I DO recall, because I left there, flew to DFW, telling Killian I was extending my vacation ;), and rented an office and apartment in preparation for going on my own.  I walked into his office a week or so later on my 29th BD to announce I was leaving, believing that I needed to open my own shop before I was 30.  Ah, the confidence of youth! What could have possibly gone wrong with that plan? :D
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

David Druzisky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2008, 10:48:50 AM »
Jeff - what was your first design built?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2008, 11:00:49 AM »
David,

My first nine holes was Northwood CC in Shreveport, LA in 1986 and my first 18 was Brookstone in Atlanta area in 1987, with Larry Nelson as a collaborater.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2008, 12:27:03 PM »
Rockport CC has elements I have seen rarely elsewhere, old or new designs, and I'm curious to know if anyone would confuse it with a Pete Dye design - at least a late 70s /  early 80s Pete Dye design.

Ian Andrew

Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2008, 12:51:02 PM »
Next time I see Dana I'll be sure to ask him which course was his "first" in terms of being the primary designer.

I think you'll find it was probably the Devil's Pulpit in Toronto

Daryn_Soldan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2008, 10:46:52 PM »
Jeff,

Where did the nine hole addition in Holdrege, NE fit into your early work? I seem to remember a story from you at Colbert Hills or on here about that being one of your first.

-Daryn

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most Interesting First Designs?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2008, 11:25:41 PM »
Ooops. Forgot about that one, primarily because I didn't do a lot of field work on it.  After starting my business, but before actually moving to Texas, I stayed at the folks and drew those plans on their kitchen table for a princely sum of $5000!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach