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Eric Olsen

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2008, 12:55:32 PM »
The Double Eagle Golf Course in Eagle Bend, Minnesota has a reversible 9 hole layout by Joel Goldstrand. 

Matt Waterbury

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 12:57:36 PM »
The only one of these ideas I've heard which I'd agree with as being "new" is the par-2.  If that ever catches on, Forrest will be a genius.

I do think the reversible course has potential, though it isn't completely new, obviously.  Years ago I asked Mr. Rawls to consider letting us make The Rawls Course a reversible design, but he wouldn't go for it.  I learned my lesson:  I'm working on another one as we speak, but this time I'm not going to tell the client about it until opening day.

The "winter" course at my home course (Black Rock) is the back nine in reverse: start at the 18th green, and play through the 10th tee. Obviously the course was not designed for such play, but it is a great way to experience all aspects of the course. For example, on the 17th tee the fairway appears to be nothing but bunkers. Starting at the green you can't see them (but, alas, they are still there).

Matt

« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 01:00:41 PM by Matt Waterbury »

Rich Goodale

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 12:59:02 PM »
The only one of these ideas I've heard which I'd agree with as being "new" is the par-2.  If that ever catches on, Forrest will be a genius.



I remember suggesting the par-2 on this DG about 8 years ago.  My lawyers will be contacting Forrest's lawyers posthaste!

Garland Bayley

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2008, 01:09:24 PM »
The only one of these ideas I've heard which I'd agree with as being "new" is the par-2.  If that ever catches on, Forrest will be a genius.



I remember suggesting the par-2 on this DG about 8 years ago.  My lawyers will be contacting Forrest's lawyers posthaste!

Rihc,

Forrest's idea/proposal is probably older than 8 year. Don't waste your money.
 :)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 01:10:48 PM »
Forrest Richardson wants to build a par 2. Has proposed it, only to get it shot down by the developer. Extending this idea, why not build a course with predominantly par 1.5s, 2.5s, 3.5s, 4.5s, and 5.5s.

Say

20yds (1.5)
30yds (1.5)
40yds (1.5)
95yds (2.5)
105yds (2.5)
115yds (2.5)
275 yds (3.5)
285 yds (3.5)
295 yds (3.5)
395 yds (4)
405 yds (4)
415 yds (4)
485 yds (4.5)
495 yds (4.5)
505 yds (4.5)
675 yds (5.5)
685 yds (5.5)
695 yds (5.5)
6025 (64.5)

Perhaps this would be the ultimate feel good course. The score card of course would round all those numbers off, and we all know .5 rounds up.  ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Ryan Farrow

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2008, 01:18:46 PM »
In the next 10-20 years the typically "development" golf course will be gone. The heads of the most selfish and greedy peoples in American history will no longer be making the decisions and a younger, more knowledgeable group of planners and developers will stop lining golf holes with homes, provide more than one way in and out of a development, and use the golf course as a community open space where residents can walk by, through or around the course on the way to their local community square to pick up the groceries. And the golf course will be used to treat all of the communities effluent.

Bill_McBride

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 01:30:22 PM »
I think a combination of as many of the MacRayBanks templates in one hole and whatever is left over combined in the following hole would be the best new design idea of all time.  Perhaps a real architect can combine them all into one hole.  I would need two holes, amateur that I am.  Everything will be laser straight with perfectly level bunker floors and grass faces beyond 90 degrees.  Even Brian Silva wouldn't dare try that.  Cantilevers will be necessary, but it is an homage to the engineered look so it should be acceptable to all fans of the style.

Pat Mucci will instantly join the club that offers such holes no matter the cost.   He will assuredly be bewitched, bothered and bewildered at the wonderment of it all.  He'll just stand there transfixed for hours on end staring with unbounded joy and around his neck an extra absorbent bib to catch the drool.

Here are my design proposals:

I'd start the Raynor Prized Dogleg off with a Redan fairway landing area (the green is already so familiar, I thought I'd alter the concept to the tee shot landing area) with a bit of a Hog's Back.  I'd then utilize a brilliant composite of a Leven convex bunker and Alps mounding fronting the perched Knoll green with Bottle like fall-offs, leaving a bit of room to land the ball and run it past a Road Hole bunker.  The green, situated exactly like the original Cape Hole green at NGLA, would be a combination of a prototypical Banks Double Plateau with a tilt reminiscent of the Eden Hole green.

On the next hole, I would try to somehow combine the remaining templates.  Perhaps I'll design a Punchbowl green with a Biarritz swale precisely perpendicular to the line of play and exactly 3 feet deep the entire length of the swale.  The greenside bunkering will be similar to the Short complex.  The tee shot will need to carry a Sahara bunker complex to a Valley landing area offering two routes similar to the Channel where the player selecting the easier route will be faced with a Hell Bunker from the Long Hole.

Because the public will be demanding to play the same holes on their own courses, you can expect to see copies of these holes on all courses I will be designing in the future.   You gotta give the public what it wants.

Wayne, interestingly enough, Pensacola Country Club's new course has a 245 yard par 3 with a reverse Redan green that features a Biarritz swale!  This is a creative design by Jerry Pate and lead designer Steve Dana.

It really works at that length.  If the pin is back, it's a hard cut fairway metal or driver (for me these days  :P ) that catches the left front slope and runs onto the green through the swale and up to the high back tier.  Seeing this happen from the tee is most entertaining!

You can make out both the front "kicker" slope and get a glimpse of the swale in this photo:



Also, #17 is a 455 yard hole that combines a Cape tee shot with a punchbowl green.



The punchbowl is down inside the mounding in front of the since removed tent used for cart storage until our new clubhouse was finished last month.

Jerry Pate and Steve Dana were way ahead of you!

Ian Andrew

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2008, 02:11:26 PM »
Reclaimation

Whether its the adaption of Land Fills sites for golf, the use of grey water in irrigation, the development of turf to handle salinity - its not design that has pushed the edge - but the technical way architects handle the most complicated of sites to find golf.

The innovation I have seen most recently has a focus on water. I look at examples like xeriscape, the recent use of drip irrigation in bunker faces to be more efficient with water, courses that drain internally and re-use run-off, and the changes made in design to intentionally minimizes maintained turf.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 06:12:07 PM by Ian Andrew »

Peter Nomm

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2008, 02:16:49 PM »
Don't know if this "counts" but I know Ron Garl is really promoting his innovative practice facilities:

http://www.rongarl.com/projects/practice_facilities.shtml

Not necessarily "golf course" per se but I can see where these may become popular.

Lester George

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2008, 02:24:23 PM »
Matt,

Good Stuff!

I have done a couple of greens where the surround bleeds into the next tee.  One at Cavalier Golf & Yacht and one at Country Club of Florida.  In both cases, the members believe themselves (their course) unique.

Lester

Ryan Farrow

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2008, 03:02:29 PM »
Matt,

Good Stuff!

I have done a couple of greens where the surround bleeds into the next tee.  One at Cavalier Golf & Yacht and one at Country Club of Florida.  In both cases, the members believe themselves (their course) unique.

Lester

The first time I saw this was at the Valley Club. Yes, its not new, but hopefully it will start coming back. I saw Doak do it for one hole at Rock Creek.

Michael Dugger

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2008, 03:21:33 PM »
I gotta say the Coore and Crenshaw green which bleeds right into the following hole teeing grounds.



That idea is as old as the game of golf (remember the old rule about teeing your ball up within a few paces from the last hole?), and I very much doubt that C&C were the first to use it in the 21st century.

Everyone sure talks about it like it's a novel concept.

I'll be quiet now  :P
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

wsmorrison

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2008, 03:22:08 PM »
Bill McBride,

Ha!  Pate and Dana merely went with two templates per hole.  I'm talking a dozen on one and seven on the other.  Let's seem them top that!  ;D

Tom_Doak

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2008, 06:00:50 PM »
Ryan:

The third fairway at High Pointe wrapped around the back of the green and connected into the fourth tee when I built it twenty years ago.  I thought it was a cool idea, but I never thought it was original, since pretty much every tee at St. Andrews is that way.

Bill_McBride

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2008, 06:19:48 PM »
Matt,

Good Stuff!

I have done a couple of greens where the surround bleeds into the next tee.  One at Cavalier Golf & Yacht and one at Country Club of Florida.  In both cases, the members believe themselves (their course) unique.

Lester

The first time I saw this was at the Valley Club. Yes, its not new, but hopefully it will start coming back. I saw Doak do it for one hole at Rock Creek.

Ryan, are you thinking 14th green into 2nd tee?  I'm trying to think of other obvious examples.......

JohnV

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2008, 07:28:49 PM »
How about a course with no par 4s?  9 par 3s and 9 par 5s for a par of 72.

Par 3s of
100
120
130
150
170
190
210
220
250

Par 5s of
475
495
515
535
550
570
590
605
625

It comes in at just over 6500 yards.

Since Daly has built a course that can be played as 18 par 5s, why not this?

Tom_Doak

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2008, 07:35:15 PM »
John:

I wouldn't object to that, other than it's kind of a gimmick.  You can't tell me a piece of land would suggest that NONE of the holes should be par-4's.

JESII

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2008, 07:46:49 PM »
I challenge any of you guys that get paid to do this to make a "cart before the horse" hole today that people actually like...

Not a new idea, but getting someone to actually like it would be new...

By the way, #2 on the C-Nine at Huntingdon Valley is the best I've seen...

Tom_Doak

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2008, 07:54:31 PM »
JES:  You're talking about a longish hole where you have to lay up off the tee and then hit a long second shot?  You are right, making a popular version of that would be really hard.  The 18th at High Pointe is kind of like that (a short par 5) and people DETEST it, and I don't really blame them.

The only good version I've done is the sixth at Stonewall.  For me, it's smarter to lay up down the right and hit a long iron from there, than to try and drive it over the creek, because I'm going to have to hedge left to make the carry and the approach from the left rough is just impossible.  But, what makes the hole work and not be criticized is that good players all think they can make the carry -- even though a lot of them go left and get in trouble that way.  If everybody really had to lay up to the right, they'd hate it, even though the second shot from there is about as good of a 4-iron approach shot as I've ever built.

wsmorrison

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2008, 08:00:34 PM »
The 6th at Stonewall from the back tee


JESII

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2008, 08:13:42 PM »
If everybody really had to lay up to the right, they'd hate it, even though the second shot from there is about as good of a 4-iron approach shot as I've ever built.


That has been my argument in favor of C-2 at HVCC...the second shot, for a scratch level player, is as good a long iron approach as we can play anywhere...people hate that you can only hit a 210 or 220 shot to get to the spot...

A 90* dogleg with trees on the short corner pretty much eliminate any chance of hitting a longer shot and cutting off some distance.

My one time around Stonewall was a shotgun from the 13th or 14th tee in 2000...I'd like to get back out to see that hole because your description sounds like the right way to do it...ours has no real risk option...

Tom_Doak

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2008, 10:07:58 PM »
Wayne:

Yep, that's the hole, except in that view you can't see the right-hand lay-up fairway at all!

I hope it doesn't really look that way at eye level from the middle of the back tee!  (I think they have rebuilt that tee from our original version ... I know we didn't build the retaining wall for the middle tee.)

wsmorrison

Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2008, 09:37:02 AM »
Tom,

I'm 5'10" and that's how it looked from the back of the back tee.  However, the landing area short of the creek is in view from the tee markers in the photograph.  I cannot recall exactly, but I think it is vegetation that hides the lay-up fairway from the very back of the back tee.  I'm glad there is a cart to take the golfer up and back to the back tee , even with caddies.  That would be quite a difficult hike without the cart, but worth it as that is a great hole and terrific on the green end including the approach.  And that rolling Pennsylvania farmland is a beautiful surround.  To me, every bit as nice as the Pacific Ocean or other bodies of water, particularly in the Fall.

Philippe Binette

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2008, 10:04:55 AM »
I have a unique innovation, but I'm not going to tell you guys... Somebody will do it before I do :P

Joe Hancock

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Re: So What is the Best New GC Design Idea of the 21st Century?
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2008, 10:08:23 AM »
I have a unique innovation.......

It wouldn't feature redundant features.....would it?

 ;D

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

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