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Dieter Jones

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Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« on: February 14, 2008, 07:23:55 AM »
So all you students of GCA, there are alot of refenerces in the discussions here to Redans, Biarritz's etc. This is obviously a useful tool for describing hole styles etc and comparing different courses.

What's next? Is there anything from the last 30 - 40 years that will oneday be a regular part of the GCA vocabulary? Which current or recent designers are likely to feature? e.g. Pete Dye and his railway ties bunkers or Donald Trump and his waterfalls  :P

Will it really be something new or just recognition of the more recent incarnation over the "original"? (eg will a Sitwell Park green become a Barnbougle Green).
Never argue with an idiot. They will simply bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2008, 08:42:54 AM »
Good question and one I will answer with a few comments:

Other gca's had holes with pet names, usually after unusual features, like Thomas "Mae West" which would have to be updated to Pamela Anderson for those who are historic pop culture challenged....

Church Pews may have been rooted in strong puritanical culture.  Some features, like Devil Asshole bunkers, probably not so much.....

However, most of those names, like at TOC, had to evolved similarly, not always from the course feature (ginger beer came from a stand selling that product, for example) and over a long time.

At Carnoustie, "South America" evolved from a drunken young man who didn't find his destination.

Sometimes, new vocabulary and hole names seemed forced, but our best chance is to come up with one seem to be to design an unusual feature that cries out for a name.

In this day and age, I think there are some creative people out there, but I can't think of too many names that stick, at least so far.  Maybe we are more predisposed to a numbering system, like "This is a Fazio 6B hole, flipped left to right.  Now, that actually sounds more like a football play, and I can see someone calling a long par 5 in America "Go Long, Right Side" or something similar.

In this dumbed down era, I could also see hole names telling us the strategy, such as "Lay Up Hole", "Running Beauty Duck Hook" and the like.  A blind hole might now be called "GPS necessary" to sell more of those things, rather than the more old fashioned sounding "Blind" which would probably be politically incorrect anyway.
 ;)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2008, 09:36:35 AM »
I have long advocated the "treedan" where the ground contours must be utilized to work a long approach around a fronting tree.  To date, not well received.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

tlavin

Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2008, 12:24:21 PM »
Even though there "old" examples aplenty, I think that the "short four" is something that has now found an accepted place in the gca lexicon.  I don't know that there are many architects building courses these days that don't consciously include short par 4's in their planning.

Jim Nugent

Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2008, 03:18:00 PM »
Tiger tees and island greens. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2008, 03:21:44 PM »
Even though there "old" examples aplenty, I think that the "short four" is something that has now found an accepted place in the gca lexicon.  I don't know that there are many architects building courses these days that don't consciously include short par 4's in their planning.

Yes, and "long four" will go the way of the dodo bird!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

cary lichtenstein

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2008, 03:26:07 PM »
upper top for a 2 tiered green with a top pin placement

tappey poo for a putt with must e hit very softly down a slippery slope
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jim Thompson

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2008, 04:42:36 PM »
I hope someday the "tv dinner" green will be a standard term.
Jim Thompson

Joe Hancock

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2008, 04:45:39 PM »
Jim,

May I pursue the inverted TV dinner someday while I'm on a bulldozer? Or is this a trademark feature (#10)?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Dean Stokes

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2008, 04:55:06 PM »
Even though there "old" examples aplenty, I think that the "short four" is something that has now found an accepted place in the gca lexicon.  I don't know that there are many architects building courses these days that don't consciously include short par 4's in their planning.
Terry - did this new and very well accepted term not arrive via another term far beyond the control of golf course architects - "golf equipment technology" ;)
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Jim Thompson

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2008, 05:05:46 PM »
Joe,

Happy to share!  Maybe with Mikey, you guys should do a Hungry Man variation. :D

JT
Jim Thompson

Joe Hancock

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2008, 05:09:48 PM »
Joe,

Happy to share!  Maybe with Mikey, you guys should do a Hungry Man variation. :D

JT

Perfect, considering Mike's appetite. In fact, the "Inverted Hungry Man Dinner Tray" green complex should be finished off with the "Dove Bar Injection Mold" bunker.

Delicious......
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim Thompson

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 05:30:48 PM »
Joe,

Yeah, but if its a Mikey green complex it'll have to have at least three dove bar bunkers.As I recall they're like potato chips, you can't eat just one...

JT
Jim Thompson

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2008, 07:43:15 PM »
I think my proposed par-2 is worthy of duplication — but I must first get over the hurdle to get it approved.

Along this line of thinking, my guess is that there is plenty to work on in terms of creativity with the game itself. How we think of par, count strokes, etc.  This is an area of the game that golf architects can begin to work with more, giving course developers and clubs more to think about than just the physical nature of the layout.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Kyle Harris

Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2008, 08:01:41 PM »
I think my proposed par-2 is worthy of duplication — but I must first get over the hurdle to get it approved.

Along this line of thinking, my guess is that there is plenty to work on in terms of creativity with the game itself. How we think of par, count strokes, etc.  This is an area of the game that golf architects can begin to work with more, giving course developers and clubs more to think about than just the physical nature of the layout.

I like the idea of a Par 2... on a 19 hole course.

John Moore II

Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2008, 04:36:27 PM »
I have started calling the Fazio/Strantz holes that nearly come back on themselves, (eg #4 on the Ryder Course at PGA Golf Club, #11 at Tobacco Road, and others) Boomerang holes. If only because they look like one. Just an idea, but I see that type of hole every so often.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2008, 05:19:14 PM »
I think my proposed par-2 is worthy of duplication — but I must first get over the hurdle to get it approved.

Along this line of thinking, my guess is that there is plenty to work on in terms of creativity with the game itself. How we think of par, count strokes, etc.  This is an area of the game that golf architects can begin to work with more, giving course developers and clubs more to think about than just the physical nature of the layout.
Forrest - I just cant see the par 2 catching on, on a serious golf course. It would be a talking point, but I am not sure it would be positive or negative. Maybe it could be done in a course as an alternative hole, you could kinda test the water.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2008, 05:32:57 PM »
I am not suggesting it would catch on...but it might. It is extremely efficient in terms of a land use ratio to par value. The current proposed design at Mountain Shadows (Arizona) is a 50 yard green with multiple starting points (tees) that allow the golfer options of chipping or putting to any number of interesting hole locations. I would imagine the hole will receive a rating of 2.2 or higher since the median putt length will be about 100 feet at minimum.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2008, 06:22:17 PM »
The more I think about it, I think ground contour will be the next phrase, if its not already, in its more popular ground game option incarnation.  Water shortages will increase it.  However, as Forrest says, making golf a more creative rather than mechanical game revolves around it.

Now, I don't think it will be run ups from 100 yards out as much as I think it will be shorter run ups to reverse slope greens, or side bounces.

Just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Forrest Richardson

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Re: Biarritz, Redan etc - what's next for GCA students vocabulary
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2008, 11:35:32 AM »
I define what Jeff is talking about as "fairway breaks". This is a rich part of the game where there is movement and fast/firm conditions. It is all but lost on many newer courses where the ball does not roll due to turf selection, watering and over-grooming to lushness.

When one considers the fun associated with watching putts break and roll, it is a shame that we have lost that aspects of the other 1/2 of golf's shots.

Motto: Slow the greens...make the fairways faster.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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