Bunkers in the rough

[Ted Kramer]

I'll make a simple statement that I think I'm pretty willing to stand by.
Bunkers in the rough don't make any sense.
You don't want to be in the rough anyway, what's the point of putting a bunker there?

Center-line bunkers make perfect sense and so do greenside bunkers.
What is the point of putting bunkers in the rough?

-Ted

[Phil Benedict]

For most golfers bunkers are more serious hazards than rough, although modern irrigation has increased the penalty for hitting in the rough on many courses.  Even so most golfers have a much greater chance of hitting the green from the rough than from a fairway bunker.

[Bill_McBride]

There have been several threads in the past with photos of why bunkers should be in the fairway rather than the rough, not sure how you could search for them.

[JESII]

I would bet that you have considered laying up short of a bunker that is in the rough...Why would that be?

[Ted Kramer]

I would bet that you have considered laying up short of a bunker that is in the rough...Why would that be?

Interesting . . .
I'll have to think about that.

-Ted

[Kirk Gill]

What is the point of putting bunkers in the rough?

At a course I played last year, all of the fairway bunkers were completely surrounded by rough. I asked about it, and they said they narrowed the fairways to save maintenance/mowing costs, and that left the bunkers out in the rough.

Not a great point, but a point.

[Dean Stokes]

What is the point of putting bunkers in the rough?

At a course I played last year, all of the fairway bunkers were completely surrounded by rough. I asked about it, and they said they narrowed the fairways to save maintenance/mowing costs, and that left the bunkers out in the rough.

Not a great point, but a point.

Yeah. The point is now the course is not being played the way it was designed!
Bunkers are supposed to gather poor shots. Rough should not impede balls getting into the sand.

[Sean_A]

What is the point of putting bunkers in the rough?

At a course I played last year, all of the fairway bunkers were completely surrounded by rough. I asked about it, and they said they narrowed the fairways to save maintenance/mowing costs, and that left the bunkers out in the rough.

Not a great point, but a point.

Yeah. The point is now the course is not being played the way it was designed!
Bunkers are supposed to gather poor shots. Rough should not impede balls getting into the sand.

Dean

I agree with Ross(?) that there is no such thing as a badly placed bunker.  However, some bunkers are less badly placed than others.  With this in mind I would suggest that bunkers are the exact opposite of collecting bad shots.  I believe bunkers should create interest for the player who wants to take the ideal line of play.  It may be that we differ on what a poor shot is, but I envision the best bunkers as those which gather balls which are off nearly very good shots and the very best bunkers tempt players to go for shots they have no business attempting. 

Ciao

[Dean Stokes]

Sean, perhaps I worded it incorrectly because I agree with you. A player tries to hit a fade off the distant dog leg bunker up on the left corner of the fairway but hits it just too straight - he runs into the awaiting trap. Correct? A well placed bunker.
Back to the main point then. In what situation would a player be trying to hit a great shot at bunker positioned in the rough. That is surely an unnecessary bunker.

[Kirk Gill]

Yeah. The point is now the course is not being played the way it was designed!

All too true. It really bugged me, although if I have to be honest the course wasn't really the kind where the width would have necessarily made me feel like there were more options. In other words, I don't know that having a bunch of bunkers in the rough was the worst of the place's problems.

That said, a bunker intentionally designed to be surrounded by rough strikes me as redundant, strategically. But there are other imperatives, like aesthetics or a desire for randomness........and I'm sure there are more.....

[BCrosby]

Very few bunkers were designed to be in the rough during the Golden Age or the Modern Age.  That's several generations of architects who passed on the idea.

But a quick look at Whistling Straits and other newer courses and it's clear you've entered a different design universe.

Perhaps I am missing some deep metaphysical architectural issues here, but to my lights bunkers in the rough are a mistake at the level of strategy, playability and aesthetics. Which only leaves room for one other possible justification - gimmickry.

Bob

[JESII]

How would you define "gimmickry"?

[BCrosby]

Trying to be different for the sake of being different.

[JESII]

Trying to be different for the sake of being different.

But that surely wouldn't be a reason for bunkers in the rough...would it?

I think there are far less creative reasons for bunkers in the rough like; narowed fairways to save money so spending money to move the bunkers is counter-intuitive, and framing a hole instead of scattering the golfers.

[Phil Benedict]

What about all those bunkers at Oakmont?  Were they put in before there was a distinction between rough and fairway?  Maybe the bunkers came before the rough, or as fairways have narrowed the rough has grown in around the fairway bunkers.

[JESII]

Phil,

Others will know much better than I about the evolution of Oakmont, but I think it would be wise to assume Oakmont goes against most everything this board generally deems attractive in strategic design...which is in large part what makes it so great...

[Peter Pallotta]

If they'd shave down the rough to make it fairway, and then take that fairway out well past the bunker lines, so that the bunkers formerly in the rough would now be littering a very wide fairway, wouldn't that be more interesting strategically and aesthetically? I'd imagine there be all sorts of new possible 'angles' created.

Peter 

Just was 'warned' of the recent posts, but thought I'd toss this in anyway

[JESII]

Peter,

Assuming 33 yard fairway widths and the bunkers jutting in just a wee bit (3 or 4 yards) wherever they are...how much fairway outside the edge of a 7 yard wide bunker would you need to consider it a viable option to create a nice angle to the green?

[BCrosby]

Sully -

There are lots of bunkers now in the rough because people narrowed fw's designed to be wider. The more interesting issue is why you would actually design bunkers to be in the rough.

In the former case, it's a matter saving the bucks to move or remove them. In the latter it's trying to figure out what design purpose they serve. I can't think of a good one. Other than maybe the way they will look on an advertising brochure.

Bob

[Philippe Binette]

Bunkers in the rough exists as an evolution of golf architecture and maintenance...

First, it's hard to mow steep banks so somewhere, on some bunkering style (Oakmont), you can't get the fairway to them.

Second, remember that the word fairway doesn't exist in the rules.

Third, if you design a hole with a bunker in a straight line between the tee and the green and you decide for whatever reasons that the 'fairway' will only be on the left side of the bunker, your bunkers is in the rough.

That lead to one of the most striking element in Forrest Richardson book on bunkers, that bunkers should be an important element of a hole and not only, like most architect do now, put bunker as fill in a fear that their hole will be boring.

That leads to philosophically, bunkers (of the tee) not in a direct line between the tee and the hole could be called pointless.

That's why I have a problem with bunkers on the outside of a dogleg (some call it target bunkers)

[Peter Pallotta]

JES

that's a good question. I think I understand what you're getting at. I'm imagining an additional 7-10 yards of fairway outside the bunker line. What I'm thinking of are fairwway bunker-green complex relationships where the best angle to the green/pin is actually from smack dab in the middle of the bunker (with that advantage being offset by the fact that you'd then be IN a bunker). So I'm imagining that -- with the fairways moved out -- the option of playing as close to that bunker from EITHER 'inside' and 'outside' of it would at the very least double the choices; and that, from 7 or so yards outside the bunker, there might even be new and good angles to be discovered, sometimes...

Peter

[JESII]

Peter,

There might, but in reality you would have 30 yards of fairway to one side of the bunker and 7 yards to the other side...how much better could that angle really be to take on the risk? What do you envision bordering the outside of this 7 yard band of fairway?

[Sean_A]

Peter,

Assuming 33 yard fairway widths and the bunkers jutting in just a wee bit (3 or 4 yards) wherever they are...how much fairway outside the edge of a 7 yard wide bunker would you need to consider it a viable option to create a nice angle to the green?

Sully

It isn't just about angles - its really about options.  If the bunker is in the fairway there is a decent chance for 4 options in dealing with a bunker.  If the bunker is located in the rough the options are reduced to at most 3 and often 1. 

I can think of a few reasons for bunkers in the fairway.

1. Cost saving measure - which isn't a bad thing in and of itself. 

2. A heroic play where the choice is to carry a bunker (leaving a shorter shot or perhaps reaching a green) or play safe to the fairway.  This is limited strategy for the bunker, but it does serve a good purpose and I have no problem with its use sometimes.  However, often times, a bunker is placed in this position into the side of a bank or whatever - in which case the bunker is pointless and really serves as a guidepost or it looks dramatic.  I spose this is ok, but I am not sure spending money on this sort of thing is desirable.  The effect could be just as well achieved by a big hollow there which can look dramatic and not need the maintenance of a bunker.   


Ciao

[JESII]

Sean,

That works for every course that WILL be built...what about all the courses that have there bunkers in the rough today? Even if they were built in the fairway, they are in the rough today...how are you going to get them back into the fairway?

By the way, I love a hole with one fairway bunker (in the fairway) and one greenside bunker...but I am a realist...and I know that is unwelcome on here, but I'm ready to go today...

[Sean_A]

Sean,

That works for every course that WILL be built...what about all the courses that have there bunkers in the rough today? Even if they were built in the fairway, they are in the rough today...how are you going to get them back into the fairway?

By the way, I love a hole with one fairway bunker (in the fairway) and one greenside bunker...but I am a realist...and I know that is unwelcome on here, but I'm ready to go today...

Sully

I don't think current fairway widths would support moving the bunkers into fairways.  Besides, if the bunker is well placed in its surrounds it ain't so easy to shift them around without spending some dosh in which case why not just widen the fairways?  The obvious answer is first to consider the financial aspect.  If the club can afford to widen fairways to surround most/many bunkers it should.  If the club can't afford to widen fairways it should consider eliminating many of the bunkers in the rough.  I think many bunkers are a waste of effort and money anyhow.  Or, it could consider widening fairways to the fronts of bunkers to make them more in play, but leave rough from the bunker to the green. 

Of course, many courses would look quite bland with a ton of bunkers taken out, but perhaps these courses are terribly bland anyway.  It isn't often that slapping bunkers in can do a lot to help a boring course.  I think a course has to be good before even one bunker is introduced.   Bunkering should serve to make a course very good or great, not to create its main interest.

Ciao

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