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Tim Pitner

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2008, 03:57:17 PM »
You guys are looking at the wrong statistics.  Tiger's 34 wins in 80 events includes WGC events and majors--not just regular European Tour events.  At least in part because so many foreign players play on the PGA Tour, it's undoubtedly the strongest tour, but comparing Tiger's win rate on the U.S. Tour versus his win rate in European Tour-sanctioned events (including WGC events and majors in the U.S.) doesn't prove that.  I don't know what Tiger's win rate is in normal European Tour events. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 04:07:46 PM by Tim Pitner »

Phil Benedict

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2008, 04:26:57 PM »
I think Tiger is better at golf than anybody else in whatever it is they excel at, whether it be sports, the arts, entertainment, business.  Obviously these things are impossible to measure but for my money Tiger is the standard of excellence in the world today.

Michael Christensen

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2008, 05:32:30 PM »
it would be nice if Woods or other top USA/world talent would go to Australia and support their majors.......Nicklaus did for how many years??

Woods will never go to Europe and play an average tour event such as the French or Scottish...he is all about the appearance fees that the D Bank in Germany and others give....he has to pay for his jet fuel somehow

George Pazin

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2008, 06:26:37 PM »
I've always fought the urge to tell others how to live their lives.

However, I can admit I've never understood how someone who has accumulated enough for himself and multiple generations down the line doesn't start immediately living the life I can only dream of.

It would be so cool to play an event simply because you want to. To join a club because you find the course fun or the members fun.

Well, I'm gonna cut it off there, I don't want to bore everyone. I've always assumed that that instinct for more is the same thing that makes me happy with my small business and my happy life; maybe there's a lesson there. Not sure if it's for me or everyone else. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2008, 06:36:46 PM »
Michael:

Did Nicklaus really play in the Australian Open to support the Aussie Tour or was it just because he liked to fish down there and because Kerry Packer made it worth his while?

I view that as similar to Tiger's jaunts to Ireland the week before the Open Championship to play with his Irish hosts ... except Tiger's friends prefer that he play with them instead of playing in a real event.

Dean Stokes

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2008, 06:46:10 PM »
Is Tiger not taking time to get over jet lag while fine tuning his game on links courses the week before one of the biggest championships in the world?
Not that the Aussie Open is not big - but Jack going fishing for a week and playing down there is hardly similar to what Tiger is doing - is it?
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

jeffwarne

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2008, 06:48:42 PM »
How many European Tour events has Tiger won in Europe?

Tiger having a 42% win rate on the European tour isn't real surprising considering many of those are small field World Championships played in the US ???.
It would naturally be higher than his win rate against US full field events (which is lower than 28%-his win rate on the US TOUR)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Michael Christensen

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2008, 09:13:43 PM »
whatever Nicklaus' reasons for going to Australia...he did go...and won 6 times....he went during his prime years too

it is a shame that the USA players are not world players....remember the match play champ held in Australia?  now it is held in the US every damn year instead of giving the world a chance to see great players.....a WGC event in England every 5 years doesn't cut it

Tiger should go more places...but I have a bigger problem that he doesn't play more on the US tour.....I remember talking with Tom Pernice in Hartford a few years back...he felt every member of the PGA Tour should have to play every venue once every 3 years.....it would be nice to see Tiger in Hartford or Fort Worth or even Riviera!

Brock Peyer

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2008, 09:43:21 PM »
Nothing Tiger does surprises me.

John Kavanaugh

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2008, 10:06:00 PM »
Nicklaus never won at The Riviera either.

Mike_Clayton

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2008, 10:17:59 PM »
Tom,

The reason Jack Nicklaus,Arnold Palmer and Gary Player played in Australia for so long - most of the 60s and all of the 70s - was that Mark McCormack organized a deal with Slazengers (who had about half of the club market in Australia) to manufacture a signature line of clubs each year for each player.
I have read in one of McCormack's books that the deal he did with Slazengers was very significant for its time.

Everyone who played here had at one point a set of Nicklaus,Player or Palmer clubs. I know I did as did all my friends.

What is more amazing was how many exhibition matches they played with guys like Bruce Devlin at obscure country courses.



He went fishing with Kerry Packer a lot but that was toward the end of his time here.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 11:15:32 PM by Mike_Clayton »

Doug Ralston

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2008, 10:33:09 PM »
Here is yet another 'remarkable' Tiger stat: I am several times more likely to watch a tournament [tuna-mint says Hooty] if Tiger is playing.

Why? Same reason Fischer [chess], Jordan [b-ball], Secretariat ect attract attention. Trancendant talent is a soul expanding experience; a wonder we never should miss.

As for what Tiger 'should' play ............... Let Tiger be Tiger. That is thus far entirely satisfactory.

Doug

Jim Nugent

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2008, 12:22:03 AM »
You guys are looking at the wrong statistics.  Tiger's 34 wins in 80 events includes WGC events and majors--not just regular European Tour events.  At least in part because so many foreign players play on the PGA Tour, it's undoubtedly the strongest tour, but comparing Tiger's win rate on the U.S. Tour versus his win rate in European Tour-sanctioned events (including WGC events and majors in the U.S.) doesn't prove that.  I don't know what Tiger's win rate is in normal European Tour events. 

This may not be accurate, but I tried to back my way in.  Tiger has played in 44 majors as a pro.  There have been 26 WGC events.  Assuming he played all those, that comes to 70.  Leaving 10 other Euro Tour events, and a 70% win rate. 

Sounds high. 

Tim Pitner

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2008, 01:28:15 AM »
Jim,

Are you counting WGC World Cup events that Tiger may not have played in?  Off the top of my head, I remember Tiger playing in the Deutsche Bank event in Germany, the Dubai tournament and the Johnnie Walker in Thailand and China.  I remember Bjorn beating Woods in Dubai; I think Stenson won in Dubai with Tiger in the field; and I think David Howell won an event in China when Tiger was there.  It seems like there would be others where Tiger didn't win, but I'm not sure. 

Mark Pearce

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2008, 02:12:51 AM »
As well as the European Tour events Tim mentions, Tiger has, historically, been a regular at the Dunlop Phoenix (Japan) and the HSBC Champions (Singapore but before it became a European Tour event).  He also used to play in the HSBC Matchplay at Wentworth which is not a tour event.

Dan,

The richest individual tournament in the World in 2009 will be the Euroean Tour Dubai event with its 10 million Euro prize.  Tiger only needs to add two European Tour events to be eligible for Tour membership.  With his record qualification for Dubai would be trivial.  So why not add the PGA Championship (at Wentworth, where he has a good record in the Matchplay) and, say, the Scottish Open (at Loch Lomond, though that might interfere with his meticulous preperation for the Open).  Otherwise, he could always play theDeutsche Bank again, or one of those Asian/Australasian co-sponsored events.

Your figures aren't evidence either way as to the relative strengths of the PGA and European Tours.  The majority of Tigers European Tour events are Majors and WGC events and, as we all know, he's brilliant at peaking for those events.  The fact is that no-one disputes that Tiger is head and shoulders above the rest of the World.  A more relevant question is how Mickelson or Furyk or even Sabatini would fare in Europe, or how Harrington or Westwood would fare in America if the made it their home tour.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Jim Nugent

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2008, 05:32:55 AM »
Jim,

Are you counting WGC World Cup events that Tiger may not have played in? 

Yes, I assumed he played in all the WGC events, but I don't know.  70% victory rate seems high to me, but that's just a guess. 

Quote
Your figures aren't evidence either way as to the relative strengths of the PGA and European Tours.  The majority of Tigers European Tour events are Majors and WGC events and, as we all know, he's brilliant at peaking for those events.  The fact is that no-one disputes that Tiger is head and shoulders above the rest of the World.  A more relevant question is how Mickelson or Furyk or even Sabatini would fare in Europe, or how Harrington or Westwood would fare in America if the made it their home tour.

Westwood and Harrington have played over 100 PGA events each. 
Westwood has one victory, one second, no thirds.  Padraig has won 3, with four 2nds.  It's not clear to me why they would do much better than that, if they played full-time.   

Several of Europe's biggest stars have played the U.S. tour, with limited success.  Faldo only won 3 U.S. events outside the Masters, yet he played something like 180 or 200 PGA non-major tournaments.  I think Seve only won four times on the PGA tour.  Montie has never won. 

Going the other way:  I don't have much opinion about Furyk.  Mickelson is a star who has won 3 of golf's biggest events.  I bet he would be a big star in Europe too. 

Dan Boerger

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2008, 10:11:01 AM »
Mark - I don't suspect it matters to Tiger whether he needs to add one, two or nine more European events to qualify for the Order of Merit. As evidenced by his scheduling I also suspect he holds that about equal in importance to winning the John Deere Classic. If he wanted to pursue it he would.
"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

Andrew Mitchell

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2008, 10:42:37 AM »
Dan
The point Mark and others are making is that if Tiger adds two more Euro tour events to his schedule he can become a member of the tour, which qualifies him to enter the Race to Dubai, which carries the largest prize money in world golf (€10 million).  Tiger may not be motivated to win the Scottish Open anymore than he is to win the John Deere Classic but I assume money still motivates him, otherwise he probably wouldn't have bothered with the Fedex Cup ;D
2014 to date: not actually played anywhere yet!
Still to come: Hollins Hall; Ripon City; Shipley; Perranporth; St Enodoc

JESII

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2008, 10:47:20 AM »
But adding three events to his schedule is unlikely, and he already runs close to the bare minimum in the US so I don't think he has any he could drop...That said, I think it would be cool to see him try and with his business in Dubai, maybe...

Tim Pitner

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2008, 11:53:08 AM »
When I watch golf, it's often the European Tour because I'm more likely to be hanging around the house in the early morning or late night than in the afternoon.  One observation is that, because the fields aren't as deep as on the PGA Tour, the more well-known players are often at the top of the leaderboard--I like that for viewing purposes.  Guys who were very elite players on the European Tour and then made the move to the PGA Tour--people like Adam Scott and Trevor Immelman--find winning on the PGA Tour more difficult. 

Having said that, I do think we tend to overrate the merely good players in the U.S. (people of lesser ability than Furyk and Mickelson)--the Ryder Cup often demonstrates this.  I also think we tend to underrate the difficulty of living and playing in a foreign country.  There's a comfort level that's missing for players like Westwood and Harrington when they're on the U.S. tour.  Imagine some of the pampered U.S. players trying to live in Europe.  They bitch so much about the weather, food, water pressure, television, you name it, when playing the Open Championship and the Ryder Cup, I honestly don't think many could handle it. 

Re: Faldo and Seve, Faldo played the U.S. Tour full-time for a short while before he re-worked his swing with Leadbetter and after his final Open Championship.  He played the U.S. tour when he won the Masters in 1996, but there's no doubt his best years were in Europe.  Seve didn't play the PGA Tour very often, as I recall.  I don't think their records in the U.S. prove much, one way or another.  Obviously, they were great players--6 and 5 major wins, respectively. 

Dan Boerger

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2008, 12:14:29 PM »
Tim - Why would any top US (or mid level for that matter) pro pursue a professional career in Europe when they could play nearer to their family and friends and for larger (nearly all events) prize money? Now add to this the generally greater opportunity endorsements in the states. Some may classify it as being pampered, but I call it a wise career decision. Similarly, Lance Armstrong made a wise (again IMO) career decision moving to Europe, building his schedule around the Tour de France and hardly ever racing in the states. US Pro cycling bitched about this constantly, but Lance knew what he was doing.

Top European players are world beaters. Look at their Ryder Cup domination and although they went through a serious major drought, I expect a Euro to win (on average) 1 or more majors a year. That said, it's my opinion the depth of the US tour is greater.


"Man should practice moderation in all things, including moderation."  Mark Twain

George Pazin

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2008, 12:42:35 PM »
Dan
The point Mark and others are making is that if Tiger adds two more Euro tour events to his schedule he can become a member of the tour, which qualifies him to enter the Race to Dubai, which carries the largest prize money in world golf (€10 million).  Tiger may not be motivated to win the Scottish Open anymore than he is to win the John Deere Classic but I assume money still motivates him, otherwise he probably wouldn't have bothered with the Fedex Cup ;D

I don't think money - prize money, anyway - motivates Tiger to play. I wouldn't be surprised if the Fedex Cup becomes less and less a priority for him in the future. I think he did it last year to try to quell the critics who say he doesn't support the PGA Tour enough.

I can sympathize with those who are disappointed Tiger doesn't play more on the PGA Tour, but that's the downside of making the players independent contractors. I don't know if anyone envisioned a day the players would make so much money that the prospect of a million dollar prize wouldn't be that enticing.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tim Pitner

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #47 on: February 14, 2008, 02:05:24 PM »
Tim - Why would any top US (or mid level for that matter) pro pursue a professional career in Europe when they could play nearer to their family and friends and for larger (nearly all events) prize money? Now add to this the generally greater opportunity endorsements in the states. Some may classify it as being pampered, but I call it a wise career decision. Similarly, Lance Armstrong made a wise (again IMO) career decision moving to Europe, building his schedule around the Tour de France and hardly ever racing in the states. US Pro cycling bitched about this constantly, but Lance knew what he was doing.

Dan,

I'm not really suggesting that U.S. players should do such a thing.  Although, I enjoy Europe enough that, if I were a mid-level pro, I wouldn't mind relocating the family for some time in Europe, playing some golf over there, maybe working on my links golf in my spare time. 

What bothers me is when some people look at foreign players on the U.S. tour, whether they're Europeans, Australians, South Africans, etc., and conclude that, because they're not exceling in the U.S., they must be overrated and their past success was due solely to playing against lesser competition.  I'm suggesting that it's not that easy to live and work in a foreign country (even if you're wealthy) and, judging from some of the whining done by U.S. golfers (who don't tend to be the most cosmopolitan bunch) at the Open Championship, I question whether many U.S. golfers would do that well if they played the European Tour full-time (Tiger would be fine).  Heck, some exempt U.S. golfers can't even be bothered to play the Open.   

Dean Stokes

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2008, 02:23:50 PM »
Tim, I agree with everything you say. Living part time here no matter how good you are, makes it tough to compete at the highest level.
It would be the same for a US Tour player to try and do the same in Europe - probably harder. They would have to deal with obscure travel arrangements, not nearly as well manacured courses, bad weather, diffferent foods, totally different culture ( heck the Euro tour players stay in hotels together, eat together and drink together!!!!). Add to that you're not nearly as pampered, the crowds are a lot smaller as are the purses.
I looked at the money list from last year on th US Tour. There were names I had never heard before or seen hit a shot on TV who had made over a million dollars! Why would you go anywhere else?
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Jim Nugent

Re: Another Remarkable Tiger Stat
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2008, 02:54:53 PM »


What bothers me is when some people look at foreign players on the U.S. tour, whether they're Europeans, Australians, South Africans, etc., and conclude that, because they're not exceling in the U.S., they must be overrated and their past success was due solely to playing against lesser competition.  I'm suggesting that it's not that easy to live and work in a foreign country (even if you're wealthy) and, judging from some of the whining done by U.S. golfers (who don't tend to be the most cosmopolitan bunch) at the Open Championship, I question whether many U.S. golfers would do that well if they played the European Tour full-time (Tiger would be fine).   

My immediate question then is why have U.S. golfers dominated the British Open so much?  Even without Tiger, they have won the majority of Open Championships since 1994. 

European golfers have won almost no British Opens the past 13 years, and only 4 majors in all.  U.S. golfers have won the vast majority of Open Championships during that time, and 36 majors in all.  9 times as many as the European players.

Even if you don't count Tiger's wins, U.S. players are light years ahead of the Euro's, both in total majors and Open Championships.

That makes me think they might do ok if they played there full time.     

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