Is any architect close w/MacKenzie's best?

[Ran Morrissett]

Let's break out 12 holes (short, medium short, medium long, and long) by par three, par four and par five and I'll suggest MacKenzie's finest hole(s) per group as a starting pointing.

Pick any other architect that you wish and match his best against MacKenzie's best. Can your man put up a reasonably score against MacKenzie's best?

Short Par Three (<140y)
10 at Kingston Heath or 15 at CPC
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium Short Par Three (141y-165y)
15 at Kingston Heath or 12 at Augusta National or 11 at Lahinch or 7 at Royal Melbourne West
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Three (166y-200y)
5 at Royal Melbourne West
Score: 10 out of 10

Long Par Three (201>)
16 at CPC
Score: 10 out of 10

Short Par Four (<330y)
9 at CPC or 3 at Royal Adelaide or 10 at Royal Melbourne West
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium Short Par Four (331y-390y)
3rd at Royal Melbourne West or 13 at CPC or 9 at Lahinch or 14 at NSW
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Four (391y-430y)
12 at CPC
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Four (431>)
6 at Royal Melbourne West
Score: 10 out of 10

Short Par Five (<510y)
13 at Augusta National
Score: 10 out of 10

Medium Short Par Five (511y-540y)
4 at Royal Melbourne West or 5 at NSW
Score: 10 out of 10

Medium long Par Five (541y-570y)
8 at Crystal Downs
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Five (571y>)
16 at Crystal Downs
Score: 7 out of 10 (What others did he build this long??)

Against a perfect score of 120 (10 pts per hole x 12 types of holes), MacKenzie posts a 111, and he's in the clubhouse  

Not too bad for a Scot!

Cheers,

PS The terminology of medium long par three for instance is based on where the ball goes today as opposed to when MacKenzie built these holes. You can move the yardages around as you see fit.

PPS What would be interesting as well would be to see what MacKenzie's second (and third) wave of holes would total. With subs like 11,14 at Royal Adelaide and 16,17 at Melbourne West  and 6,7 at CPC  and 3, 5 at Augusta National and 3, 4 at The Valley Club and 10, 16 at Pasatiempo charging in off the bench, his score might well stay above 110 for at least two more rounds.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Ran,
I must forbid you from coming up with such brazen conclusions. Someobody from the Fazio offices might be listening and want to alter them.

[brad_miller]

If there is a group that will compete start with those 2 Philly area courses.

[ian]

Ran, I love you post.
I only did this to offer a similar group from Stanley Thompson, Mackenzie to me remains untouchable. Thompson has a fine list of holes too

Short Par Three (<140y)
Big Baby at Jaspar (138)
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium Short Par Three (141y-165y)
6th at St. Georges (146)
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Three (166y-200y)
old 8th Devil’s Cauldren at Banff (171)  or 9th at capilano (176)
Score: 10 out of 10

Long Par Three (201>)
15th at Cataraqui (225)
Score: 10 out of 10

Short Par Four (<330y)
4th at Highland Golf Links (326) or 10th at Thornhill (310?)
Score: 8 out of 10

Medium Short Par Four (331y-390y)
4th at Westmount (390) or 16th at Islington (340)
Score: 8 out of 10

Medium long Par Four (391y-430y)
5th at St. Georges (415)
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Four (431>)
18th at Jaspar (463) or 2nd at Highland Golf Links (441)
Score: 10 out of 10

Short Par Five (<510y)
11th at Kawartha lakes (490)
Score: 8 out of 10

Medium Short Par Five (511y-540y)
11th at StGeorges (517)
Score: 8 out of 10

Medium long Par Five (541y-570y)
18th at Capilano (557)
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Five (571y>)
7th at Highland Golf Links (575)
Score: 9 out of 10

I struggled with the two shorter categories of par 5's. I racked my brains for others, but I know that they won't come till I post this.

[ian]

Thats 107 points, forgot the total.

[Chris Kane]

Ran,

Medium Short Par Three (141y-165y)
15 at Kingston Heath or 12 at Augusta National or 11 at Lahinch or 7 at Royal Melbourne West
Score: 9 out of 10

7 is the only hole at Royal Melbourne West which has been altered significantly since opening.  The original hole proved unsatisfactory for some reason (I'm pretty sure it wasn't a quality of hole issue), and a new hole in a different location was designed by Ivo Whitton (I think) some five years later.

Otherwise, it's hard to argue with your assessment.  Is he the world's greatest designer?

[Ran Morrissett]

Ian,

As I was typing my original post,  Stan the Man was who I was thinking of, given the compelling properties upon which he worked. What about 10 and 14 at Jasper as helping your cause? I'd give'em both 9s, wouldn't you? 12 at St. George's would be a 9 too, eh?

Chris,

WOW! I am shocked to learn that - what else did he do?! The 7th is surely a lot more than beginner's luck!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Ian
I'd give #7 at Cape Breton a 10.

Ran
Surely you have a Raynor eclectic at 114 1/2.

I'm sure Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn, Colt, Thomas, Alison and others could all present an outstanding entry, but what is astounding about MacKenzie's is the number of holes represented under many of the catagories.

I would think Dye could hold his own.

[MikeClayton]

Ran
I am not sure about who designed the 7th -Whitton or Russell- but Claude Crockford -the greenkeeper for 40 years- certainly built it.
I know they also moved the 12w green to the left by about 30 yards and I suspect Crockford was responsible for that terrific change.

[Chris Kane]

Ran,

Certainly more than beginners luck - it's one of the world's great short one-shotters accordingly to many who've seen all there is to offer.

I'm not aware of any other Ivo Whitton design work

[MikeClayton]

Does anyone know anything of the Russell / Whitton relationship ?
Apparently it wasn't that good.

[Paul Daley]

The relationship between Russell and Whitton were cordial in public    but in private   not so flash. A case of the the clash of the RMGC titans.

[Ran Morrissett]

Mike,

That is another piece of surprising news re: the 12th. I always wondered why MacKenzie didn't do something like it at Cypress Point - and now I know why. Maybe Mac wasn't any good after all?  

Tom,

Dye would do very well for the same reasons that Doak would be held relatively back - great set of one shotters and par fives.

I wonder how many 10 holes Flynn did other than at Shinnecock? Perhaps the 12th and maybe the 16th at The Cascades? Is that it?

How many 10 holes did Colt do? 10 at St. George's Hill, 5 at Royal Portrush, and then a ton of 9s at Swinley, etc.?

I'm a poor person to do this as I've seen less than 25% of Bill Coore's work but with Sand Hills in his corner, one never knows:

Short Par Three (<140y)
11 at Cuscowilla
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium Short Par Three (141y-165y)
17 at Sand Hills
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Three (166y-200y)
7 at Chechessee Creek
Score: 8 out of 10

Long Par Three (201>)
3 at Sand Hills
Score: 9 out of 10

Short Par Four (<330y)
5 at Cuscowilla or 7 at Sand Hills
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium Short Par Four (331y-390y)
1 at Cuscowilla
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Four (391y-430y)
2, 11 at Sand Hills or 4 at Chechessee Creek or 10 at Cuscowilla
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Four (431>)
17 at Kapalua or 10 at Sand Hills
Score: 10 out of 10

Short Par Five (<510y)
2 at Talking Stick North (in his Feature Interview, he acknowledges this as the toughest type of hole to find/build)
Score: 7 out of 10

Medium Short Par Five (511y-540y)
5 at Kapalua
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Five (541y-570y)
1 at Sand Hills
Score: 10 out of 10

Long Par Five (571y>)
18 at Kapalua or 16 at Sand Hills
Score: 10 out of 10

Total Score: 108

To my loss, I am unfamiliar with the holes at Hidden Creek and Easthampton but a three hour tour of Friar's Head's web site a few months ago  suggests that the middle holes on each nine would add to the above total score.

Cheers,

[ian]

Ran, I did consider both and they might be better holes to list.

Tom, I always wonder if I overate Thompson, I did have a 10 and then changed it. I'm probably bias due to the influence his work has had on me.

Can someone post a list for HS. Colt or Pete Dye? Both would facinate me

[Ran Morrissett]

Ian,

My take on Pete Dye would be:

Short Par Three (<140y)
13 at Long Cove
Score: 8 out of 10

Medium Short Par Three (141y-165y)
5 at Casa de Campo must be good for 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Three (166y-200y)
17 at Harbour Town or 14 at Kiawah or 16 at The Golf Club
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Three (201>)
7 at Casa de Campo is obviously no worse than 9 out of 10

Short Par Four (<330y)
9 at Harbour Town
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium Short Par Four (331y-390y)
13 at The Golf Club or 3 at Kiawah or 13 at Harbour Town or 12 at The Honors
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Four (391y-430y)
13 at Kiawah
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Four (431>)
6 at The Golf Club or 12 at Blackwolf (River) + a million others
Score: 9 out of 10

Short Par Five (<510y)
8 at Blackwolf Run (River) or 6 at Long Cove
Score: 8 out of 10

Medium Short Par Five (511y-540y)
11 at TPC Sawgrass
Score: 9 out of 10

Medium long Par Five (541y-570y)
11 at Whistling Straits or 5 at Pete Dye GC
Score: 9 out of 10

Long Par Five (571y>)
16 at Kiawah or 16 at PGA West or 14 at The Golf Club
Score: 9 out of 10

Total Score: 106

Like MacKenzie, I reckon Dye could go several rounds and stay above 100.

Cheers,

[ian]

Ran, Dye's list is impressive for what wasn't included that is just as great. Good list.

I would like to get Brad Klien, or somebody else who knows Donald Ross to do his list.

Anyone dare to take on Tillinghaust? San Francisco GC, Winged Foot etc.

[brad_miller]

Can " little Tilly" the old 13th at SFGC be used as a short 3 par? This topic would make for a good archie type mag article. Or for Golfweek, best modern 18 vs classic 18 to go with their course stuff, clearly we would want to see the honorable mentioned list!  How many of Fazio's and Rees Jones holes would warrent mention?

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad is right.  Other than Dye, what's with the focus on all of these dead guys.

After all, Tom Fazio claims that he doesn't even want to know what his historical predecessors might have thought or did.  Of course, then this week he claims he has read Mackenzie's book, to justify the changes to ANGC.  

He also claims that today's architects are clearly advantaged and superior with all of the earth-moving technology at their disposal.  Perhaps someone who has played more of his courses than I have (10 or so) could post his best here, as well.  

I would think that of the 100 or so courses he has built, that many of those holes should just leap right out as superior, original, groundbreaking, memorable, and strategically tactical...almost household names, so to speak.  

Of course, his pervasive, ubiquitous "restoration" work may someday obliterate the previous competiton.  Perhaps over time, he'll just win by default.

[Chris_Clouser]

Just because I have been compiling a similar list here is what I have for Maxwell.  I can't swear the yardages exactly match up but they are close.  Won't compete with MacKenzie but is interesting.

Short Par - Twin Hills #4 ( Only one I can think of.  Could rank higher.

MedSht Par 3 - Veenker Mem #11 (

MedLong Par 3 - Prairie Dunes #10 (10)

Long Par 3  - Old Town #15 (9)

Short Par 4 - Twin Hills #10 (9)

MedSht Par 4 - Old Town #7(original) (9) current version would be 7

MedLng Par 4 - Prairie Dunes #8 (10)

Long Par 4 - Southern Hills #12 (10)

Short Par 5 - Prairie Dunes #17 (9)

MedSht Par 5 - Dornick Hills #16 (10)

MedLong Par 5 - Veenker Mem #16 (9) Very underrated hole.

Long Par 5 - Lakewood #1 (7)  Not many strong ones in this group.  I question Ran's judgement of 8 out of 10 on the 16th at CD, but if he can count it on Mac's I could probably include it in Maxwell's since it was a co-design.  

Total:107

[Paul Turner]

Here's my attempt for Colt.  Although I don't think I do his courses justice since I haven't seen any of his best Continental Europe work (Kennemer, Haagsche, Falkenstein, De Pan).  Or his courses in Canada (Hamilton, Toronto).

Haven't put any scores down because it makes my head spin!

Short 3: 8 Swinley Forest

Medium Short 3: 13 Muirfield (2 Wentworth West)

Medium 3: 11 Hoylake (8 St Georges Hill, 4,17 Swinley, 6 Portrush Dunluce, 5 Sunningdale New)

Long 3: 14 Portrush Dunluce (9 Brancepeth Castle)

Short 4: 4 St Georges Hill (9 Portrush Valley)

Medium Short 4: 7 Broadstone (10 St Georges Hill, 5 Isle of Purbeck??)

Long 4: 14 County Sligo (12 Hoylake, 9,12,15 Swinley)

Short 5: 6 Sunningdale New

Medium Short 5: 9 Muirfield

Medium 5: 17 Muirfield

Long 5: 5 Muirfield

[Paul Turner]

oops made mistake:

Should read:

Medium Short 4: 5 Portrush Dunluce (13 Portrush Dunluce)

Medium 4: 7 Broadstone (10 St Georges Hill, 5 Isle of Purbeck??)

[ian]

Thanks Paul, always been a huge fan of Colt. I've seen 25% of your list and you have given me a list of places to see.

The strength of both Hamilton and Toronto are the great par 4's (from very short to really long) many are worthy of a list.

[John_McMillan]

Chris,

I'm surprised you rate #16 at Veenker so highly.  Maybe you'll re-evaluate it after you've played it.  For those that haven't seen it, it's a fairly straight hole for 450 or so yards, with a creek and trees down the right side.  The hole then turns sharply to the right, and plays over the creek to an opening in the trees.  To me, while it's a "medium-length" par-5, there's almost no chance to play a second shot towards the hole.  The trees make the green blind from 200 yards away in the fairway, and the required shot is one that travels straight for about 180 yards then duck slices to get around the trees.  After I had played it a couple times, I hit a perfect drive - about 280 or so yards and down the left side of the fairway - and concluded that I still had almost no play towards the green.  Since you can't get to the green in 2, and it's not too long a par-5, the first two shots are not that interesting - like a 3-wood and 5-iron to bump up to the approach area where you can play an 80 to 100 yard wedge shot over the creek.  Maybe there were more options to play to the green when Maxwell designed it (and the trees might have been shorter), but now it's a fairly boring 3-shot 510 yard par 5.

[Tom Doak]

Ran,

That MacKenzie was the best in this regard is pretty much indisputable, and it's why he's always been my personal favorite.

But to try to rate others is difficult under this system.  Reasonable minds might differ by a point [up or down] on either side of your ratings for many of the holes.  Multiply that by twelve holes, and there's some serious wiggle room.

Indeed, this is much the same as the GOLF DIGEST system -- take a bunch of subjective 1-10 ratings and add them together, and what looks like a big gap is really just a general bias in favor of one course [or in your case, one architect] over another.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

How could you forget CBM ?  And didn't he put them all together better than anyone at NGLA and Lido ?
Do you count The Creek and Piping amongst his work ?

Egads man, you're suffering from loss of Rachelforbia.