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Norbert P

Modern site excavation volumes.
« on: February 12, 2008, 02:37:45 PM »
  What is the average amount of soil moved on a new golf course construction site these days.  I found this quote from the USGA website . . .

 " . . . it is now common to move tremendous amounts of dirt in the form of cuts and fills. At one time, moving more than 200,000 cubic yards of earth was considered unusual if not excessive. Today, it is not uncommon to move over 1,000,000 cubic yards to build and shape the new course." quote by James Moore

I'm not making a judgement on how much is too much. Consider Chambers Bay with its huge amounts of earthmoving, reportedly 100,000 truckload cut, cleaned and relaid, but to a wondrous final result, and Bandon Crossings with its minimal earthmoving to another fabulous result.  Both obviously moved the amount of earth in which to achieve a golfable result with very different site requirements.

 In the spirit of George Pazin's "Context" thread, what is the average these days (last 10 years) of cubic yards moved for a modern golf course? 
Some extreme examples of Lows and Highs?

I first attempted to find actual numbers on the internet but info was spotty for this web-challeged rube. Anybody know of a database for this topic?

Any GCA's or Construction Firms, e.g., Wadsworth, etc. out there that can divulge recent numbers and your thoughts of earth relocation practices would be appreciated.

Do you think maybe these higher and higher numbers are becoming more and more acceptable as time goes by?

« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 02:43:47 PM by Slag Bandoon »
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Ray Richard

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2008, 03:12:29 PM »
As good golf course sites get scarce, and more landfills become golf courses, some of the earthwork volumes are staggering. The Quarry Hills project in Quincy Ma imported 7 million yards from the Big Dig highway project. It was a great dumping location close to the city.

Norbert P

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2008, 03:36:33 PM »
 Wow ! 7 million cubic yards!   I guess they had to put the soil somewhere and I suppose it helped out both projects. 

 (I couldn't help but thinking of the old "The Great Escape" with Steve McQueen, et all, when they had to put the tunnel dirt somewhere, so they made a huge garden. I assume with raised beds.)

About Liberty National in Jersey City . . .  "A total of 2 million cubic yards of soil are (were) being excavated and relocated to other areas on the site for creating natural-looking mounds and small hills."     This $140 million production pales in comparison to your example.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Patrick Hodgdon

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2008, 05:45:29 PM »
Calusa Pines GC moved 2 million cubic yards of dirt to create the elevation which included digging/blasting out the lakes on the course with over a $1,000,000 in dynamite. The 12th tee-box is now the highest point in SFL at 59 feet as a result. The best part is that it looks natural.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Jim Engh

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2008, 06:52:56 PM »
Really there are two kinds of excavation. The first is required to make the project possible, flat areas big enough for a golf hole or to raise holes above site issues.  The second is to create landforms in the name of artistic value. 

Many times the project quantity may include excavation for housing pads.

The most that I have moved is about 700,000 cy. I would think that our average is about 300,000 - 400,000cy.

The least would have to be our new Four Mile Ranch project in Colorado. we moved only 70,000cy total. 40,000 of that was in creating the irrigation pond.  Understand that this particular setting could have come straight out of NW Ireland. It was more a function of finding the holes and hoping the golfing public can deal with a few blind shots.

As I progress in my career I have found myself moving less dirt than in earlier years.

Jim   

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2008, 07:14:40 PM »
I agree with Jim, but my numbers are a bit different.  For some reason, I can recall earthmoving amounts, but I couldn't tell you yardages or course ratings for a lot of my courses.

Jim and I both came out of the Killian and Nugent office, so we may have some of the same tendencies.  It was not unusual to move 100-150K dirt (not counting topsoil on and off) on a K and N project, and anything over 200K was unusual.  It might have grown under Nugent when Jim worked there, or maybe because Jim worked there ;D

As Jim says, it varies wildly, with flat sites usually needing 400-500K just to make the drainage work.  Of course, if Tommy N were still here, he would tell you that I over grade and install too many catch basins,  ;D but there is relationship there - I usually try to balance the cost of the two and it is the cheapest, most natural way sometimes.  If I didn't add basins, one side of the fw would have to be artifically high.

My flattest sites were Opryland, Wild Wing, Sand Creek Station, all of which required in that range.  In Lake Jackson, I was flat, but only moved about 220K.  On low budget courses in Lawrence, KS and Glen Rose and Odessa, TX, I moved about 185K, but actually there are some areas I wish drained better.  Much of that earthmoving is really reshaping in the fw to create 3% pitch for drainage, so its not as expensive as hauling out of lakes or from one fw to another.

On mildly rolling sites, I can get by on that 185K easily, and never more than 225K, and my courses in that range include all my MN courses, K State, Cowboys, and most of my other ones around DFW.  Brookstone in Atlanta was about that and I recall Centennial (now gone) was built with 108,000 CY of cut and fill.

I suspect that if I ever did a course where there were mounds all down the fw, it would run into the 600-700K range.  Anything more than that would require a special situation - like Faz sinking Shadow Creek a mile into the ground.  I actually believe that many of my fellow gca's move that much without really having to.  At least, on big jobs, we go back and closely engineer raising of fw to the lowest possible requirement for drainage.  At Wild Wing, for instance, had I raised the fw another foot "just to be safe" or because I wasn't really grading it out carefully, I would have moved a lot more earth.  I used those savings for more bunkers and other "fru fru".

Every acre raised a foot translates to 1600 CY, so raising 100 acres an unnecessary foot adds 160K of earthmoving at about $200K......Its those big areas that add up.  Raising a green or tee another foot really doesn't add to the fill totals that much in most cases, unless you are already battling a downslope.  I call it "adding to the top contours" whereas adding to the bottom contours (i.e. the fw fills) adds up quicker.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Patrick Hodgdon

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2008, 08:37:13 PM »
Really there are two kinds of excavation. The first is required to make the project possible, flat areas big enough for a golf hole or to raise holes above site issues.  The second is to create landforms in the name of artistic value. 


Yea I was merely pointing out an example of an extreme. Thanks for your stats Jim that helps put it in context better.
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Kalen Braley

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2008, 08:56:38 PM »
Jim,

I'm curious how much dirt was moved on Lakota Canyon, especially the front nine?  I would imagine there was a lot of cut and fill to create the fairways, but just an amatuerish guess on my part.   ;)

Tom_Doak

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2008, 09:01:17 PM »
It is hard to know what to count or not count in doing earthmoving quantities.

When they want to make The Rawls Course sound like a lot of work, they use a figure of 1.4 million yards.  The actual earthmoving change from start to finish was 770,000 cubic yards, plus the topsoil work -- 300,000 yards stripped and 300,000 replaced.  You get to 1.4 million if you add all those together.

That's the most we've ever done.  The Legends (Heathland) was about 450,000 cubic yards, which surprised the heck out of my client who told me to move 750,000 and thought we did!  At the other end of the spectrum, High Pointe was about 35,000 cubic yards of earthmoving (2/3 of it for the pond on #18) and St. Andrews Beach was even less than that. 

I believe we have been at less than 100,000 cubic yards for at least half our courses and less than 250,000 cubic yards for all except The Rawls and The Legends -- making flat sites drain -- and Stonewall (I) and Stone Eagle -- making hilly sites useable.  I don't remember the number at Stone Eagle but I should look it up -- it was not as much as the "average" being quoted in the article and that was a pretty severe site.

Norbert P

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2008, 02:30:32 AM »
 Thanks to all for insights and answers. Some statements have created another question. . .  With due consideration for drainage, how did the old horse-drawn scoopers get by with perc issues? Was it lower golfer expectations?  Do any engineering standards of slope percentages change once the soil horizons have been disturbed?   
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

james soper

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2008, 02:42:44 PM »

As I progress in my career I have found myself moving less dirt than in earlier years.

Jim   

jim, how much dirt and rock had to be moved for the creek course at reynolds plantation. i was at reynolds two years ago, and if i recall, the site was pretty hilly. heading up there in october and looking forward to seeing the finished product. jim
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 02:44:54 PM by james soper »

Lester George

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2008, 05:31:57 PM »
I think if I had to put it to an average it would be 300k - 400k for a new course that is fairly flat.

Lester

Gary Gruber

Re: Modern site excavation volumes.
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2008, 12:39:04 PM »
I agree with TD, it is hard to know what counts when earth moving.

We have just moved someting like 200k making, what I would call fairly minor changes to three fairways, however a lot of this was flipping materials to bring the sand to the suraface whilst burying the poorer material.

I would hope that it looks to our members that we have only moved 20 - 30k.

Time will tell.

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