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Mike_Cirba

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #125 on: February 14, 2008, 03:58:49 PM »
"Tawdry" ...is that a word I can use in discussion somehow when I take my wife out for Valentines dinner? I hope so, because it sounds cool.......

Joe

I'm hoping to use "meretricious" at a very passionate juncture this evening. 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 09:42:42 PM by MPCirba »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #126 on: February 14, 2008, 04:04:08 PM »
It isn't such a "Big World" after all, is it boys?


Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #127 on: February 14, 2008, 04:18:51 PM »
Rather apt to this topic..."do you think you used enough dynamite there Butch?"

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #128 on: February 14, 2008, 04:22:07 PM »
Are you people all drunk? At 4 o'clock in the afternoon?

Jim Engh

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #129 on: February 14, 2008, 05:27:50 PM »
YA BABY!!!!!! 

 I for one consider the post by Shivas to an artform!!!!!!! Natural????  Who cares!!!!!

That is the perfect way to end a discussion that has no right answer!

Way to go Shivas!!!


Very cool that ya'll gave such great perspective to an unanswerable question.  Thank you!

Jim



 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #130 on: February 14, 2008, 05:32:36 PM »

That is the perfect way to end a discussion that has no right answer!

Way to go Shivas!!!



Yea, Shivas.....way to go.....we finally get the thread to a point where we have sex, drinking and cool words.....and you perfectly end it......

Dumbass.......

 ;D
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #131 on: February 14, 2008, 06:38:25 PM »
...
- If a piece of land is flat and boring, is it the gc architects duty to design to mimic the land or provide an unique human experience through art?
...

Not worth asking. You are designing a golf course, not a bowling alley or a pool table.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #132 on: February 14, 2008, 07:26:07 PM »
Sean:

I've been called harsh before for criticizing Carne -- perhaps it was you.  But, once the decision was made that the only way to play golf over a couple of those holes was to alter the landscape -- in just one or two spots on the whole course -- don't you think they should have done a better job?  Or are you telling me those shelves in the fairway on 17 are natural?  I would forgive it entirely in that case, but I don't believe it's true.  (Perhaps then you'll tell me that the shelf on 17 at Pennard is natural, too ... although it bothers me much less.)

Architects always cry "budget" about such issues [although in this case it is you and not Eddie Hackett making the case], but there is really hardly any extra money involved.  All we're talking about is running a dozer for an extra day or three in order to make the work appear more natural.  I'd be willing to bet they rented the dozer by the month, so it's down to a few hundred dollars for the fuel and the shaper.  In truth, they probably didn't have a real shaper -- the work was done by someone inexperienced and he needed more time to get it right.

Tom

I think the 17th fairway at Carne was shaved.  I can only guess the shelf you are talking about at Pennard's 17th is in the landing zone for the tee shot. 

There is absolutely no way that botch job is natural.  It has to be one of the worst efforts at shaping a fairway I have ever seen.  Again, that nightmare is down to budget constraints.  The entire fairway needs work to accept tee shots better.  I am surprised the club hasn't just widened the fairway by 10-15 yards.  They cleared a lot of the rubbish away on the low side so balls aren't so easily lost.

I think you are dead right about Hackett not having a proper shaper at Carne - which is down to budget and probably some sort of stipulation about using local labour.  I am not even sure Hackett was paid for his work - if he was it wasn't much!  I am not getting on your case for criticizing Carne.  I am saying that perhaps your are criticizing Carne based on unrealistic expectations.  Place the work in context of the budget and I don't see how one can't be amazed at the results. Carne certainly isn't perfect, but its a hell of a lot closer to perfect than many a big name course in GB&I. 

BTW When are you gonna build a wee course on all that empty land on the Swansea side of the Pennard property?  There has to be a cracking little par 3 course sitting there.


Ciao
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 05:05:15 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #133 on: February 14, 2008, 08:43:50 PM »
""Tawdry" ...is that a word I can use in discussion somehow when I take my wife out for Valentines dinner? I hope so, because it sounds cool......."

Joe Hancock:

You and some of the things you say on here just never cease to amaze and amuse me.

NO, tawdry most certainly is NOT a word you should use in a discussion with your wife when you take her out for a Valentine's dinner tonight. The only possible reason to use that word at a Valentine's dinner with your wife would be to describe the hot babe at the next table if your wife happens to catch you ooogling her anatomy.

And Mike Cirba, meretricious is not a word you should be using either when the lenses start to get condensation on them. Meretricious is just a New York City word that should only be used in New York City by sophisticated New Yorkers when they describe the lack of taste and lack of fashion of women in and around Hollywood, California.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2008, 09:46:43 PM »
Tom,

It works really well for role-playing activities.   Joe would have applauded the tawdriness. 

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #135 on: February 14, 2008, 09:49:23 PM »
There are presently 182 guests and 65 "users" signed on to Golf Club Atlas at 9:47pm EST on St. Valentines Day.   :-[

I can't imagine that many of us are engaged in romantic or passionate activites at the moment.   ::)

Oh...wait...maybe we are.   ;)

Yikes...what a realization.


Wait...now 204 guests and 68 users at 10:02 pm.

Someone better serve oysters at the next GCA get together.


oh sheez...230 guests and 75 users at 10:13 pm.

No wonder there are all those ads on tv.

Now, this is what I call "unnatural"!  ;D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 10:22:10 PM by MPCirba »

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #136 on: February 16, 2008, 05:02:39 AM »
Acording to Hackett, 14 or 15 of the holes at Carne are just as he found them, while he had to move heaven and earth for the others. I don't know which holes these are, but the 17th may be one. Interestingly, though, the 17th is many people's favourite hole on the course - it's certainly mine.
John Marr(inan)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #137 on: February 16, 2008, 05:31:00 AM »
Acording to Hackett, 14 or 15 of the holes at Carne are just as he found them, while he had to move heaven and earth for the others. I don't know which holes these are, but the 17th may be one. Interestingly, though, the 17th is many people's favourite hole on the course - it's certainly mine.

Jack

You got that right.  17 has to be one of the best par 4s in Ireland.  Of course, I view the hole from a golfer's perspective rather than an archie's perspective. Reading about the how the course came about its amazing that anything was built.  I seem to recall that six different grants/loans had to be secured for the project which in total was about £1.9 million.  I think local unemployed folks had to be used as part of one of the grant schemes.  The club has also been very smart in developing in stages - though it had no choice because the money came in at different stages.

Its a shame there seems to be some sort of hangup with the new 9.  I gather there are a few awkward areas that have caused some concern.  Do you know when the course may be completed?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

TEPaul

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #138 on: February 16, 2008, 08:27:55 AM »
"Acording to Hackett, 14 or 15 of the holes at Carne are just as he found them, while he had to move heaven and earth for the others. I don't know which holes these are, but the 17th may be one. Interestingly, though, the 17th is many people's favourite hole on the course - it's certainly mine."


Jack Marr:

If you have any kind of eye at all for identifying what's created by man and what's natural and it's true what Hackett said that 14 or 15 holes are just as he found them and he had to move heaven and earth on the others, that's pretty much what good natural looking architecture is all about in my book. The idea is to hide the hand of man, after-all, and it sounds like Hackett did that.

Personally, I have two definitions for "minimalism." One is when very little earth was moved and the other is when a lot of earth may've been moved but few can tell where or how. The first type is actual minimalism and the second type is the "look" of minimalism. In the end the goal is the same thing---eg to create something that looks like nothing much was created.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #139 on: February 16, 2008, 09:59:11 AM »
Based on my experience, moving little earth on 14 holes and a lot on 4 is pretty typical. On rolling ground, its hard to make all the holes fit perfectly, but that's a pretty good ratio.  And, as my mentors used to say, you have to get some cut from somewhere to build your greens and tees, so a few made holes aren't all that bad.

Tom Doak once wrote here that Jim Engh was one of the few gca's who didn't care if his stuff looked natural. I guess I fall into that category to a degree, for a few reasons.  First, we both had Nugent as a mentor, who was trained at U of I, as was I.  The most famous U of I LA grad was Hideo Sasaki, who is famous for the phrase, "The land is putty."  Its fair to assume some of that filters through forty years later.  Not that I haven't given it some thought since then, in a philosophical way.

It has always seemed a bit odd to me to have to move 400K dirt to be a minimalist!  In truth, on many sites, its required.  Once you shape a green to any style and start tying in the contours, sometimes you find you need to shape all the way down the fw - whether in minimalist or Rees Jones mound style.  To me, it seems more "sincere" or "true minimalist" to simply accept the fact that greens, tees, and bunkers are built. For that matter, I never had the budgets to move 400K to be a minimalist, and found I can move less earth (100-200K) with the "accept it" philosophy.

Most golfers and people accept that, sort of like ignoring the puppeters running the marionettes and "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."  In those cases, the human mind can suspend that kind of reality and see what its "supposed to see."  In golf, most will see it as natural because of the grass and trees, even if those, and the bunkers are far from natural.

If we tie those contours back to nature in a flowing way (usually by making sure the bottom of slopes flare out rather than hit ground abruptly) then most people think its natural, esp. after a few trees are planted mid slope. There are many golden age courses where the cuts came from the rough that this is the case and that fill was used to build up greens, etc.  Whether nature covering up, or the human mind presuming older equal better, golf courses do get better with age.

I agree that many modern designs, mine included, crept away from that ideal, experimenting with the land is putty theory, making golf courses as visual as TV, etc.  Perhaps there is room for all, and someone probably had to try different styles and directions to make their golf courses stand out.

And standing out may not have the objective on most courses. In most designs are seeking to provide reasonably priced golf, as in the old days of Scotland, and which is so sorely needed.  They start out in the "struggle just to get buit" style!  Do you pick a design style on anything other than the lowest cost to build and maintain?  While we like to talk about the top 2% of the courses in the country, for the other 98%, practicalism or necessitism reigns.  Not that minimalism isn't part of that, but minimalism while moving 400K isn't. 

To us a Clinton paraphrase, since its another election year - "It's the golf, stupid!"

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #140 on: February 16, 2008, 10:11:17 AM »
JeffB:

It's still just amazing to me that so many on here seem to think that minimalism is only moving very small quantities of earth and that by doing that anywhere one is serving some higher purpose for the interest and challenge of the golf involved as well as the aesthetics of every site.

That perception or fixation is generally no more than half the battle and in some cases on some sites a whole lot less than half the battle.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #141 on: February 16, 2008, 10:19:53 AM »
Sean:

Your photo of the 17th at Pennard on the last page was an inspiration.  (I hope that's your ball sitting nicely on the shelf, though if it is, you shouldn't complain so much about it.)

Yes, the work there is pretty poor from a naturalist standpoint, but I think of that differently than Carne because the work at Pennard was done long after the course opened, and they didn't want to take the whole fairway out of play; whereas at Carne it was all sand in construction and they could have fixed it then.  But, that's not why I'm bringing this back up.

I've brought it up because I realized I had seen the answer to how to handle such a steep sidehill fairway for zero dollars, back when I was in Scotland in 1982, on a short par-4 at Crieff, up north of Gleneagles.

They simply didn't mow any fairway on the hole, and left everything in short rough, so the ball wouldn't bounce away down the side of the hill.  Problem solved.

Today we would be considered nuts for that, so we spend $10,000 reshaping the fairway instead.  But it's not really any better of a solution, playability-wise.  It's only that golfers are too conditioned to believe there has to be a fairway at the length of their drives.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #142 on: February 16, 2008, 10:45:07 AM »
If someone did that again in the US of A, I think it would be considered a new idea for the 21st Century - the par 4 with no fw cut.  Ya know, it may happen someday, keeping steep fw contours and longer grass just to save the maintenance!  Of course, in the US it would probably be "first cut" rather than rough but I wonder if anyone would dare try that here?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #143 on: February 16, 2008, 10:55:18 AM »
TomD:

Would you condone doing a hole today that had light rough (or something like a first cut) and no fairway height grass just to slow down golf balls?

In a sort of compromise sense we actually did something like that at GMGC on the 10th. The slope down and away from the direction of drive was causing most balls to just automatically get to the rough so the solution was to simply massively increase the area of first cut in that area. Frankly, I think it's an even easier lie than the fairway.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #144 on: February 16, 2008, 11:23:39 AM »
Sometime in the '50's Jones noted that the biggest change in golf courses was the heights at which fw's were being cut.

I suspect that normal fw heights back in the 20's prevented a lot of the roll-off problems noted above.

Bob

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #145 on: February 16, 2008, 11:35:01 AM »
Sean:

Your photo of the 17th at Pennard on the last page was an inspiration.  (I hope that's your ball sitting nicely on the shelf, though if it is, you shouldn't complain so much about it.)

Yes, the work there is pretty poor from a naturalist standpoint, but I think of that differently than Carne because the work at Pennard was done long after the course opened, and they didn't want to take the whole fairway out of play; whereas at Carne it was all sand in construction and they could have fixed it then.  But, that's not why I'm bringing this back up.

I've brought it up because I realized I had seen the answer to how to handle such a steep sidehill fairway for zero dollars, back when I was in Scotland in 1982, on a short par-4 at Crieff, up north of Gleneagles.

They simply didn't mow any fairway on the hole, and left everything in short rough, so the ball wouldn't bounce away down the side of the hill.  Problem solved.

Today we would be considered nuts for that, so we spend $10,000 reshaping the fairway instead.  But it's not really any better of a solution, playability-wise.  It's only that golfers are too conditioned to believe there has to be a fairway at the length of their drives.

Tom

Thats one way of stopping the ball.  I was thinking of the problem from another angle.  An awful lot can be excused from a design perspective if the problem can be seen and the ball can be found - make the landing zone visible from the tee.  Of course, Braid designed the hole as the tee on the ground near the present 16th green.  The change was made later to move the tee down to its present position when the 16th green was moved to the dunes. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #146 on: February 16, 2008, 01:42:54 PM »
Tom P:  Would I "condone" that?  Do I have that much power?

I think it would be a very sensible solution for a course in a rocky area with some steep sidehill fairways, where regrading the area would be cost-prohibitive.  It would be controversial among players to be sure, but I suspect that there are probably some holes of this description on nine-hole townie courses in the western USA.

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #147 on: February 16, 2008, 10:30:50 PM »
I think we will be pushing the envelope at Old Macdonald far more than most people expect, and I'll be the first to applaud when somebody pulls off the Picasso of golf course designs, really out there and yet fun to play.  I was talking with a landscape architect recently and asked him who he thought would be a good collaborator for such a project -- not a Tour pro but a landscape architect who is way "out there" so I could serve as the golf expert for them.

Tom:

Off the top of my head, I would say George Hargreaves.  He's abstract and creative; but, he's also sensitive to building healthy landscapes.  He's also worked on projects with a scale comparable to a golf course.  He won't be intimidated by the size of your project, he's comfortable moving earth, and he could give you some insight into making your designs benefit the environment.

I've never met him.  I've studied some of his work, but only from photographs.  For whatever reason, when I read you were looking for a "Picasso" designer, I immediately thought of him.

http://www.hargreaves.com/

Carlyle

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is natural the ultimate goal?
« Reply #148 on: February 17, 2008, 09:50:43 PM »
Carlisle, thanks for the link.  Here's a classic from Hargreaves in Napa, California . . .   



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