Different tees during the same round

[Phil McDade]

I tend to be a zealot about playing from the proper tees. I have little tolerance for players who try to exaggerate their skill level by playing from improper (often too far) tees. Among other offenses, it slows down a round for nearly everyone behind them (and I say this as a high-handicapper).

Having said that, I must admit a confession: I dislike playing from different sets of tees during the same round. I like to choose a set of tees, and stick with it.

A few recent threads (Pebble Beach, the Southern California course that had some dramatic bunker re-work to the dismay of some here) suggest players perhaps ought to explore playing from a variety of tees (whites, blues, even blacks or golds) to get a true sense of how the course plays as designed by its architect.

(Small caveat: During my one trip to Scotland, I felt great comfort in the near-dictatorial manner in which clubs there strictly enforced play from one set of tees.)

What say the board? Is it a course-specific issue, and/or does it really matter?

[tlavin]

The last time I played Lake Nona, the members played  a mixture of front, middle and back tees and I believe their card was altered to show the format.  We tried it there and enjoyed it immensely.  I do a bit of this informally, but it plays havoc with your handicap.

[Andy Ryall]

Our course, Pioneer Creek, a public one W of Minneapolis, is creating a Member's Tee based on a mixture of 4 tee sets - the MGA (or USGA) uses a formula to calcuate a new rating/slope for that tee combination.   

Chaska Town Course, which co-hosted the 06 US Am with Hazeltine, did a similiar exercise last year.    We did so to add some variety and to factor some different strategic options into the player's mindset - and to accomodate a wide range of ages and handicaps that are used in club play.

2008 will be the inaugural year and I am interested to see the results.  Does anyone have a similiar experience?

[Brent Hutto]

If you're in a stroke-play tournament, everyone needs to play from a set of tees designated in advance.

Otherwise, the golf course is there to have a game played upon it. I can't see any conceivable harm to ones self, ones playing companions or the course if someone moves up two sets of tees to make a Par 5 reachable or moves back to a set to bring a fairway bunker into play on a certain Par 4.

I think if a hole seems to have some manifest "way to be played" in terms of angles or hazards intended by the architect for an obvious purpose you would be missing out on an opportunity if you played from a tee that takes those features out of play given the nature of your own skills and equipment. The fact that you played the white tees on the hole before and after is no reason not to play the blue if that's what let you fully experience the hole, subject of course to the wishes of your opponent if you're having a game.

[David_Tepper]

The Olympic Club has recently introduced a blended/composite set of tees.  On the 9 toughest handicap holes, play is from the white tees. On the easiest 9 handicap holes, play is from the blue tees. This composite set of tees has been rated & given a slope.

[Adrian_Stiff]

You should really just abide by the rules of the club. If they say play off the fronts, do it. Some clubs will give you the choice of using tees, if they do, then in a friendly I guess there is no reason not to mix n march, if you want too. At our course you can play where you want (provided you are 5 hcp or better), except at short holes where you must use the white or yellows.

[Peter Nomm]

Andy - basically during the first year our course was open we created two mixed sets of tees (one for women and one for men) and to this day they are actively used.  The only caution is to make sure someone with a lot of respect (or at least thick skin) heads it up or else everyone will want his or her own combination.  I have tweaked it over the years and we are very happy with it, and our members really spread out the use of the tees.

Phil - we occasionally play a game that you begin on the middle tee and move forward or back based on the previous hole's score.  Make a net birdie or better, move back a box.  Net bogey or worse and you get to move up.  It's a fun change of pace.

[tlavin]

The Olympic Club has recently introduced a blended/composite set of tees.  On the 9 toughest handicap holes, play is from the white tees. On the easiest 9 handicap holes, play is from the blue tees. This composite set of tees has been rated & given a slope.

How has the experience been?  This seems smart and palatable to me.

[Jason Topp]

Almost all of the clubs in my area have a mixed set of tees.  My impression is that nobody plays them.

I think courses go about it the wrong way.  Unless forced carries are an issue, I would play back tees on par fours and from further up on 3's and 5's.  Par fives are more fun if they are reachible and I believe too many courses cram too much yardage into par threes in order to increase the yardage on the card.

It seems like many courses do it the opposite way or do it randomly without much thought.

I think it is fun in match play to give the player/team behind the choice of tees.  It adds some additional intrigue.

There is a USGA formula that applies for posting these scores.  I think it is basically a stroke per 200 yards.

[John Foley]

As a second round on a trip we'll play a version of what some places call Heaven 'n Hell.

We start on the back most tee and move up one tee each hole. When you get to the front tee the next hole you go to the tips.

Lots of fun and you get a few 260 yard par 3's and 255 yard par 4's.

[Ken Moum]

I've done that on occasion, especially when I am playing for fun. Last week I had a couple of vacation days, and in one round decided to move up a set of tees at the turn. Shot 47-40, only part of which was due to the tee change.

At my brother's club, there's a group that uses a 6 and 60 rule. On two or three long par fours, where the dogleg is a LONG ways from the tee, anyone who is 60 years old, with a handicap above 6 get to move up.

From the tees the rest of them play, I can't get to the turn. But I can from one set up.

Personally I wish more clubs would get a mixed set of tees rated for handicap posting.

Ken

[Philippe Binette]

what I would like to see is to have major difference in settin the blocks day in day out, which mean that a hole playing 380 one day could be 350 the next

[Chuck Brown]

Personally, there is almost always one of more occasions in a round where I want to go back to a rearward set of tees on a hole, mostly because I too believe in playing from an appropriate set of tees.  It is just that (usually on shorter holes) a more-forward tee location is not appropriate for me.

I feel wrong in doing so, not based on good golfing principles, but rather on GHIN scoring principles.  But course ratings and slopes are not such exact sciences that the odd movement of tees makes a difference, at least as far as I can understand, so I see no harm in it, done sparingly.

[Brent Hutto]

...I see no harm in it, done sparingly.

Nor do I. In my opinion American golfers far too readily act as slaves to the quirks of their handicapping system. How much can moving back a set of tees affect ones index, maybe one or two tenths of a stroke? The darned thing shouldn't have tenths in it anyways.

[Bob_Huntley]

We do it all the time on both the Dunes and  Shore Courses. We call it the COMBO on the latter and SPECIAL on the DUNES.

The NCGA have even issued separate Course and Slope ratings for the hybrids.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

We do it all the time on both the Dunes and  Shore Courses. We call it the COMBO on the latter and SPECIAL on the DUNES.

The NCGA have even issued separate Course and Slope ratings for the hybrids.

Bob

And this can be done for any currently-rated US course... the club just has to ask the local association to compute it.  Holes are rated individually from each tee more than 25 yards apart, so it's relatively simple to do.  One could do it one's self for sure if the local association provided the individual hole/tee ratings and gave a little help with the math.

All this being said... and you didn't hear this from me, NCGA course rater that I am... obviously tee positions move all the time, so unless you are really jumping all over the place, moving up or back on a hole or two here or there isn't going to have much real handicap effect.  Brent is right.

TH

[jeffwarne]

...I see no harm in it, done sparingly.

Nor do I. In my opinion American golfers far too readily act as slaves to the quirks of their handicapping system. How much can moving back a set of tees affect ones index, maybe one or two tenths of a stroke? The darned thing shouldn't have tenths in it anyways.

Brent,
I get grief all the time from members who want the course rated from the blue /black combo,
the red/blue combo etc...... and want such garbage posted all over the scorecard.

Is it really going to MATERIALLY affect a guy's handicap index if he takes the average slope and CR of the two tees he plays( blue/black for example)and posts it as score from another course?. particularly for a guy who picks up on 1/3 of the holes?
Perhaps I'll just tell them we had it all rerated from all those tees and post the calculations I've come up with from averaging........

And for those who think it does, how do you calculate the fact that  tees are often/if not always placed UP from the measured yardages(particularly on modern courses) to move play along.

[Mark Chaplin]

For day to day play at Deal members can use any tees where the markers are out. When playing with reasonable golfers I play from the back tees, however in a 2+ club wind the back nine can be extremely long and we usually move up to the yellows. THis has the advantage of bringing fairway bunkers back into play and making the holes reachable with two strong blows.

IMO the object of a round of golf is to enjoy ones self, not hit six iron wedge when you are forced off foward tees or hit driver, wood and some more when on the tips.

Measured courses are for competitions.

[Tom Huckaby]

...I see no harm in it, done sparingly.

Nor do I. In my opinion American golfers far too readily act as slaves to the quirks of their handicapping system. How much can moving back a set of tees affect ones index, maybe one or two tenths of a stroke? The darned thing shouldn't have tenths in it anyways.

Brent,
I get grief all the time from members who want the course rated from the blue /black combo,
the red/blue combo etc...... and want such garbage posted all over the scorecard.

Is it really going to MATERIALLY affect a guy's handicap index if he takes the average slope and CR of the two tees he plays( blue/black for example)and posts it as score from another course?. particularly for a guy who picks up on 1/3 of the holes?
Perhaps I'll just tell them we had it all rerated from all those tees and post the calculations I've come up with from averaging........

And for those who think it does, how do you calculate the fact that  tees are often/if not always placed UP from the measured yardages(particularly on modern courses) to move play along.

Jeff - as I said, any combo of tees can be done - just ask the local association.  But in the end I think you're right, it's not gonna make a whole hell of a lot of difference, unless they are playing tees that are REALLY far apart and a LOT of different ones.  Your perspective is right on.

TH

[Brent Hutto]

A lot of the white and blue tees on our course darned near overlap. By that I mean they either share a tee box or the tee boxes are so close together that on a day with the whites all the way back it's practically the same yardage as the blues on a day with the blues way up.

If I just move around on a hole or two, I do nothing to my score. I just post it. If it's a different set of tees for the two nines (give or take) I post them as a "combined" score. On the rare occasion it has been many different tees I do as Jeff says and just split the difference and post it as an away score.

BTW, the system has a table for how to adjust course and slope ratings based on distance. If you figure that you moved back about 150 yards (or whatever) you can just add so many tenths to the rating, etc. I can't find that table at the moment, though.

[Doug Ralston]

I do not have a handicap, and never play competitively [unAmerican, I know]. I am very short off the tee [200yd is ecstatic for me], so I cannot play 400yd+ par-4's. So I am near the front on all of those. On the other hand, I have no problem reaching a 170 par-3, so back I go. Par-5's I usually play around 450-480.

I want to play as much of the course and enjoy as many 'features' as i can. I am realistic about it.

Obviously, changing tee positions during around is common, and IMHO, very worthwhile.

If I ever get a handicap [unlikely], I will try to keep within the bounds of rating. I do believe though, that many courses have ratings for each hole seperately, no?

Doug

[Pete_Pittock]

Pretty sure that if you play 13 holes or more from one set of tees you post par (+hdcp stroke received) on the remainder.
   The Reserve Vineyards is in the process of setting up composite blue/white and white/red courses with their separate ratings and slopes. Our local association will calculate the blue/white easily. but must do a course visit for the red/white because our red tees do not have mens' calculations.

[Art Roselle]

As a second round on a trip we'll play a version of what some places call Heaven 'n Hell.

We start on the back most tee and move up one tee each hole. When you get to the front tee the next hole you go to the tips.

Lots of fun and you get a few 260 yard par 3's and 255 yard par 4's.

As kids we used to play a game where the tee box was determined by the prior hole.  We all started on the whites.  If you made par or bogey, then next hole is from the whites.  If you made birdie, you got to play the next from the reds.  If you made double or worse, you had to go back to the blues (our tips, since there were only three tees).  Of course, we were just kids and did not care about official scores or handicaps (or rules for that matter).  It was just for match play and was a total blast.  You could obviously change the formula around with better or worse players (par or better gets to go to the Reds, etc.)  It adds a ton of fun and pressure to a birdie putt or to that dreaded comebacker for bogey. 

Also, since we struggled to get on in regulation from the tips, you could get on a cataclysmic run of double bogeys and just not be able to get off those back tees.  I know it is in violation of various rules of golf and probably would not do much to speed up play, but give it a try some time. 

Now, with everyone obsessed with scores and handicaps I can never get people to try it, but it is very fun in a friendly match,

[Chip Gaskins]

How would Ballyneal fit in here....they have no tee markers (well they didn't when i played)  I loved that about the course honestly.

[Steve_Lovett]

At Tumble Creek there is a reference on the card to the Doak Tees, which sometimes are the front, middle, back, etc...  It looks like a fun setup - a couple of drivable par 4's (from the forward tees), a few brute's (back tees), and a lot of variety.

I don't recall if the course has been rated from the Doak Tees.

Tom, if you read this, have you done this before - or is it a common thing on your golf courses?

Is anyone else familiar with this type of arrangement being formalized on the club's card?