[Patrick Hodgdon]

Hurdzan/Fry

Calusa Pines Golf Club
Erin Hills Golf Club
Hamilton Farm Golf Club
Shelter Harbor Golf Club

I would strongly suggest substituting their work at Devils Pulpit or Devils Paintbrush ahead of Hamilton Farm

Duly noted. I have read that both were good and I believe Paintbrush is highly ranked but had not heard many people talk about them.

[Tim Pitner]

I was trying to think of the best 4 courses of each architect.

I'll start:

Tom Doak

Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kiddnappers
Barnbougle Dunes

I haven't played Doak's courses in Australia or New Zealand, but, from what I've seen and read, it seems like Cape Kidnappers might not belong on this list.  Does anyone who's played it care to chime in?  Would St. Andrew's Beach be the better nominee?

Having played all 3 of Doak's Aus/NZ courses I cannot imagine how anybody could rank St. Andrew's Beach as being better than Barnbougle or Kidnappers.  Part of it is the WOW factor that both BD & CK possess in spades.  But even if you can somehow separate that out SAB cannot really compare.  It was a fun course to play and I did not lose a single ball at SAB (not the case at BD or CK!) but I found it's routing to be very repetitive in a directional sense.  Nearly every hole played either straight down or upwind and this was very obvious in that we were playing in 30mph on the day. 

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, a group of 12 of us visted Melbourne 2 years ago when we played SAB as part of the itinerary.   We are making a return trip in 2 weeks and not a one put their hand up to play SAB again. 

As far as Kidnappers not belonging in the top four I would find that very difficult to imagine as well.  If one plays it in the ferocious winds that can be had in NZ that it can be virtually unplayable but I have had many more plays of it in calm/slight breeze conditions vs. gale force.  Every hole has something to offer at CK.  The only disappointment to me is that the 18th fails to reinforce the incredible 17 holes that preceed it.

Thanks Scott.  I guess I haven't seen much discussion of the holes at Cape Kidnappers so I wondered whether they took a back seat to the scenery.  I know the setting is out of this world. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Ted Robinson 

Sahalee
Tijeras creek
Tokatee
Tustin Ranch

I think Robinson courses should be ranked by the number of manmade waterfalls they contain.

By that measure, from personal experience, I have to submit:

Rio Vista
Brentwood CC (Creek & Hill 9s)
Canyon Lakes

[Michael Dugger]

What about MacRaynor?

NGLA
Piping Rock
Yale
Chicago

Honorable mention?
Creek Club
St. Louis
Mid Ocean

What say thee treehouse?

[Art Roselle]

What about MacRaynor?

NGLA
Piping Rock
Yale
Chicago

Honorable mention?
Creek Club
St. Louis
Mid Ocean

What say thee treehouse?

Hard to argue with NGLA, but beyone that it gets tougher.  I haven't played them all, but my list probably would have been

NGLA
Fishers Island
Chicago
Camargo

Honorable mention
Yeaman's Hall
Piping Rock
Shoreacres

[Adam_Messix]

Bart--

I think your comment about the Cascades would tell you the kind of quality that came from Flynn.  It would have been easy to include Philly Country, Manufacturers, Lancaster, Rolling Green, Lehigh, and both TCCs.  All of the aforementioned courses could challenge Cascades, it could improve if they continue with the planned restoration. 

[Matthew Mollica]

A few for the Australians -

Greg Norman / Bob Harrison

The National (Moonah)
Ellerston
Brookwater
The Grand

Peter Thomson

Moonah Links (Open)
Capital
The National (Ocean)
Hope Island

Tony Cashmore

The Dunes
13th Beach (Beach)
The Heritage (Henley)
13th Beach (Creek)

Alex Russell

Royal Melbourne (East)
Paraparaumu Beach
Yarra Yarra
Lake Karrinyup

Alister MacKenzie

Cypress Point
Royal Melbourne (West)
Crystal Downs
Augusta National (Original form)


It's interesting to see just how quickly some portfolios taper off.
Asking for a top 6 would reveal some ordinary designs from some architects.

Matthew

[JohnH]

Ray Hearn

Hemlock
Quail Ridge
Grande
Yarrow

[mark chalfant]

Robert Trent Jones sr

Shady Oaks
Crag  Burn
Sperone  (Corsica)
Bristol Harbour
Old  Warson ?

[John Kirk]

Shouldn't a RTJ, Sr. list always include Peachtree in Atlanta?  I hear Pauma Valley is quite well thought of as well.  Oakland Hills in Michigan, too.

[Lester George]

Michael,

I agree with your top four MacRayors but I think your honorable mention should include the Old White at the Greenbrier.

Lester

[james soper]

Shouldn't a RTJ, Sr. list always include Peachtree in Atlanta?  I hear Pauma Valley is quite well thought of as well.  Oakland Hills in Michigan, too.

oakland hills south was a ross creation with a trent jones restoration.

[John Kirk]

Thanks, James, I knew that.  The question is how extensive the changes were.

Another notable RTJ Sr. renovation is Eugene CC, where he re-routed the course in reverse from the original design, which I believe was Chandler Egan.

[Sean_A]

How bout a stab at Fowler? 

I have to believe that Eastward Ho! is on the list, but I could be wrong and it may just be wishful thinking.  It might surprise folks, but my preference is for Beau Desert over any Fowler course I have seen.   

This leaves the Waltons, Berkshires & Westward Ho!

Ciao

[JMorgan]

How bout a stab at Fowler? 

I have to believe that Eastward Ho! is on the list, but I could be wrong and it may just be wishful thinking.  It might surprise folks, but my preference is for Beau Desert over any Fowler course I have seen.   

If Cornish and Whitten are to be believed then courses such as

Ganton, Broadstone, Lytham, Cruden Bay, Aberdovey & Southerndown are in with a shout - though I doubt any of these could fairly be called a Fowler course. 

This leaves the Waltons, Berkshires & Westward Ho!  I don't believe WHo! is in the class of the others, but I can understand my notions being disputed.  Personally, I would plug for the Red (certainly) and probably the Blue over either WH course. 

I spose this makes it

Beau Desert
Eastward Ho!(?)
Berkshire Red & Blue

If not Eastward Ho! then I cast my vote for WH New. 

Ciao

How 'bout East Devon?  Probably add that to the Ganton et al. list but could be considered.

Anyone play Bull Bay in Anglesey?

[Ian Andrew]

Walter Travis

Lookout Point
Cherry Hill (Canada)
Hollywood
Westchester

I would substitute Cape Arundal for any of the four you listed.

I like Lookout Point and Hollywood, but have touble with a definative fourth for the list unless you will argue that Garden City is a Travis.

[Ian Andrew]

Can't forget "God"!

The Old Course
Sand Hills
Old Head
Banff Springs

[just kidding]

Banff Springs was dynamited in multiple locations and had sand imported from the Bow River valley - I would question your accreditation.

[Sean_A]

How bout a stab at Fowler? 

I have to believe that Eastward Ho! is on the list, but I could be wrong and it may just be wishful thinking.  It might surprise folks, but my preference is for Beau Desert over any Fowler course I have seen.   

Ciao

How 'bout East Devon?  Probably add that to the Ganton et al. list but could be considered.

Anyone play Bull Bay in Anglesey?

J

I have long wanted to see East Devon though I didn't know it was a Fowler course. I tell you what, if Delamere had a better set of greens it would be a fantastic course.   

Ciao

[Tim Leahy]

Robert Trent Jones sr

Shady Oaks
Crag  Burn
Sperone  (Corsica)
Bristol Harbour
Old  Warson ?

Spyglass Hill has to go on that list, my opinion is it is his best work and still holds up.

[Tim Leahy]

Ted Robinson 

Sahalee
Tijeras creek
Tokatee
Tustin Ranch

I think Robinson courses should be ranked by the number of manmade waterfalls they contain.

By that measure, from personal experience, I have to submit:

Rio Vista
Brentwood CC (Creek & Hill 9s)
Canyon Lakes

I would put Rancho Murieta South course on that list over Tijeras, good back nine but bland front. Also North Ranch orig. 18 in Thous. Oaks over Tustin Ranch. I have never seen Tokatee, but Robinson Ranch Mountain is very good.

Canyon Lakes? I hope that was tonge in cheek.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean:

I have a hard time seeing how you'd do a Fowler list without including Walton Heath.  If he hadn't built WH, he wouldn't have built most of the others.

[Tom_Doak]

Incidentally, I have a homework assignment for the new World Atlas of Golf to do short bios of the 8-10 greatest Golden Age architects, and to include in a box their most important works -- hopefully 8-10 courses instead of 4-5.  So there are two sets of arguments to have.

I think I've got to include Colt, MacKenzie, Alison (because of his influence in Japan and even South Africa), Ross, Simpson (because of his influence in Europe), Macdonald, Flynn, Tillinghast and Stanley Thompson.  Don't know if I will dare to pick a tenth man from Thomas/Travis/Raynor/et al.  But if any of the experts want to email me a list of the most influential works by their man, it would be much appreciated.

I do think every architect's first course should be included as among their most influential; for a couple I am not sure where it is.  What was Stanley Thompson's first work?  Or Tom Simpson's?

[Ian Andrew]

Muskoka Lakes 1920 - clear documentation - and it still exists.

The more research we found on supposed earlier designs - the more questonable the lineage. Muskoka Lakes is the first clearly documented reference to Stanley working on a project he was designing.

If you would like a list for Thomspon - email me with what in particular you are looking for to make the list.

Ian

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I have a hard time seeing how you'd do a Fowler list without including Walton Heath.  If he hadn't built WH, he wouldn't have built most of the others.

Tom

I am not sure how much of WH Old has been altered from the original.  Additionally, the question asked for the best not most influential.  I accept that many would include WH Old as a matter of course and I certainly would if it were about influence.  In fact, the list of Fowler may stop at WH Old as an influence! 

Ciao 

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

I'm just looking for a good opinion of each architect's 5-10 most important works ... for sure we will have to include the consensus choices and his first course, but I certainly don't mind having a couple of more obscure courses in the list.

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