[Chip Gaskins]

coore & crenshaw:

sand hills
friar's head
plantation course at kapalua
old sandwich

i have to think bandon trails is better than kapalua

why has no one listed colt yet?

colt

portrush
murifield
swinley forest

[Tom_Doak]

Cary's list of my four is the consensus choice, but it'll be harder to choose in a couple more years.

The Pete Dye list is not so easy, but if The Golf Club and Teeth of the Dog aren't there, it's wrong.

[Brian Cenci]

Donald Ross: Pinehurst 2, Oakland Hills, Scioto, Beverly(sorry but a sentimental favorite) So many to choose from-probably 25 to mention in a top tier these are just mine. 

I would not consider Oakland Hills one of his better works...Inverness & Holston Hills are much better

-Brian

[Chip Gaskins]

Jack Nicklaus

Muirfield Village
Shoal Creek
Castle Pines
Mayacama?  Would Sebonack count?  If so, would Harbour Town also count?

I have played numerous Nicklaus courses and hands down Mayacama should be on the list.  I am not a Nicklaus fan really but Mayacama is fantastic.

[Bill Hagel]

Hugh Wilson

Merion East
Cobbs Creek GC
Merion West
Seaview

Best 4 - Probably Only 4

[Jeremy Rivando]

Walter Travis

Lookout Point
Cherry Hill (Canada)
Hollywood
Westchester

[mark chalfant]

Langford  & Moreau

Harrison Hills
Lawsonia
Wakonda
Culver


A.W. Tillinghast

Newport
Five Farms
Baltusrol  Upper
San Francisco

[Sean_A]

I would still like a few chaps to take a stab at Colt.  It might be a very intriguing excercise.

Ciao

Sean, I'll take a stab at Colt after Paul gives us his list. You're right, one could take Northern Ireland alone, for instance, and have a hard time coming up with a best four.

J

I think part of the problem with Colt is trying to decide which courses can Colt be said to be the "main" designer.  Off the top of my head possible candidates for best are:

St Georges
St Georges Hill
Sunningdale New
Swinley Forest
Co Sligo
Kennemer
Haagsche
Portrush
Portrush Valley
Muirfield
Southerndown
Aberdovey
Porthcawl
Burnham & Berrow
Wentworth East
Wentworth West
Formby
Ganton

In this list are several of which I don't know how much is Colt.  Even if half on the list are not predominantly Colt the choice of best 4 is very difficult.

Ciao

[Matthew Hunt]

No-one going to put Augusta on the MacKenzie list.

[Anthony Butler]

No-one going to put Augusta on the MacKenzie list.

Hard to argue that 16 isn't a better hole than when the course opened, but the rest??? The other point is that it seems very few people on GCA.com have actually played it. I'd be embarrassed to tell everyone what I had to do to just to get tickets to the 1997 Masters.

I always get the impression from the 1 or 2 people I know who have actually played the course that a visit to ANGC is like a visit to the 'Soup Nazi', except you never know which person on the property is the Soup Nazi.

[JMorgan]

I would still like a few chaps to take a stab at Colt.  It might be a very intriguing excercise.

Ciao

Sean, I'll take a stab at Colt after Paul gives us his list. You're right, one could take Northern Ireland alone, for instance, and have a hard time coming up with a best four.

J

I think part of the problem with Colt is trying to decide which courses can Colt be said to be the "main" designer.  Off the top of my head possible candidates for best are:

St Georges
St Georges Hill
Sunningdale New
Swinley Forest
Co Sligo
Kennemer
Haagsche
Portrush
Portrush Valley
Muirfield
Southerndown
Aberdovey
Porthcawl
Burnham & Berrow
Wentworth East
Wentworth West
Formby
Ganton

In this list are several of which I don't know how much is Colt.  Even if half on the list are not predominantly Colt the choice of best 4 is very difficult.

Ciao

Sean,

Of that list, what do you think ... Aberdovey, Porthcawl, and Ganton are the least Colt? 

I don't think Colt did any work at Formby (As far as I can tell, Park/Braid/Hawtree/Pennick.)

Much of his work on the Continent and in Wales is underrated vs. England courses because it remains under the radar.   IMO, many people might rank these courses up there with Swinley and Muirfield.

[wsmorrison]

Hugh Wilson

Merion East
Cobbs Creek GC
Merion West
Seaview

Best 4 - Probably Only 4

Bill,

While there isn't any archival evidence to support the attribution, Phoenixville CC's nine-hole course is attributed to Hugh Wilson. 

I think it is fair to say that Merion East's current iteration is as much Flynn as it is Wilson.  Both David Gordon (Wm. Gordon's son) and Flynn's daughter maintain that Flynn designed the West Course with Wilson and his committee having input and final say.

Cobb's Creek seemingly was designed by committee as well with Smith, Crump and Meehan involved to varying degrees.

Seaview's Bay course was laid out by Wilson with bunkers subsequently designed by Ross.  Given the development of that course on swamp and marsh lands, Wilson sought the advice of Piper and Oakley on agronomic issues.  It wouldn't surprise me if it is discovered that Flynn assisted in the construction, which must have proved difficult.  Perhaps this earlier effort to build a course on newly created land influenced  Macdonald and Raynor at Lido and likely Flynn at Indian Creek.

[wsmorrison]

William Flynn is hard to figure.  Like my favorite designer, Colt,  Flynn had a solid batting average with a portfolio of courses that are hard to beat for quality consistency.  Unlike Colt, we have pretty accurately determined his contributions on various courses.  I look forward to the same sort of research and discovery for Colt.

How does one consider courses that are NLE?  Flynn's design for Boca Raton South would certainly be on many lists as might Mill Road Farm and Opa Locka.  I don't doubt that BRS would be recognized as the best course in Florida and one of the best courses in America by many if it was still around today.  It is hard to beat a course that is part Pine Valley and part Shinnecock (a later design influenced by Boca Raton South). 

Ignoring Flynn's co-design work at Merion and TCC in Brookline, where a majority of the work is (Merion) or at one time was (TCC) Flynn and only considering his original designs, it is still hard to come up with a list limited to four courses.  Without question, Shinnecock Hills would be on anyone's list.  After that, there are plenty of candidates. 

[Jim Franklin]

Hurdzan and Fry

Calusa Pines
Erin Hills
Hamilton Farm
Philly Cricket

[Sean_A]

I would still like a few chaps to take a stab at Colt.  It might be a very intriguing excercise.

Ciao

Sean, I'll take a stab at Colt after Paul gives us his list. You're right, one could take Northern Ireland alone, for instance, and have a hard time coming up with a best four.

J

I think part of the problem with Colt is trying to decide which courses can Colt be said to be the "main" designer.  Off the top of my head possible candidates for best are:

St Georges
St Georges Hill
Sunningdale New
Swinley Forest
Co Sligo
Kennemer
Haagsche
Portrush
Portrush Valley
Muirfield
Southerndown
Aberdovey
Porthcawl
Burnham & Berrow
Wentworth East
Wentworth West
Formby
Ganton

In this list are several of which I don't know how much is Colt.  Even if half on the list are not predominantly Colt the choice of best 4 is very difficult.

Ciao

Sean,

Of that list, what do you think ... Aberdovey, Porthcawl, and Ganton are the least Colt? 

I don't think Colt did any work at Formby (As far as I can tell, Park/Braid/Hawtree/Pennick.)

Much of his work on the Continent and in Wales is underrated vs. England courses because it remains under the radar.   IMO, many people might rank these courses up there with Swinley and Muirfield.

J

Another part of the problem is that certain courses always get a mention as best just as a matter of course.  Muirfield and Portrush are two courses of Colt that automatically get a nod.  I honestly can't say which are better, but I do have preferences.

Ciao

[Adam_Messix]

Justin & Steve--

The two courses that I had the hardest time excluding were Quaker Ridge and Bethpage Black.  I just kept coming back to how much I liked the greens at Somerset Hills versus QR and BB and the quality of the short holes at SH. 

But I wouldn't argue too much against any of your choices though.

For Wayne's benefit, I will take a stab at Flynn....

Shinnecock Hills
Merion East
Huntingdon Valley
Kittansett


As far as Colt goes, it's hard to put together a list for him as he was attributed to a lot of courses but how much of his work was used or is still there is left for question.  Sunningdale Old would be one that pops up immediately as I'm sure he did a lot of work on the course while employed as their Secretary.  Then you places like Rye where the course today doesn't have much of Colt's original design left. 

[Joe Bausch]

While there isn't any archival evidence to support the attribution, Phoenixville CC's nine-hole course is attributed to Hugh Wilson. 

The history Web page for the Phoenixville Country Club says this:

Layout of the course was accomplished by the Golf Committee with some help from members of the Plymouth Golf Club.

The address being:  http://www.phoenixvillecc.com/history.html

[Chuck Brown]

Can't forget "God"!

The Old Course
Sand Hills
Old Head
Banff Springs

[just kidding]

[JohnH]

My subjective view of Donald Ross:

Scioto
Pinehurst #2
Inverness
East Lake

Art Hills (only because I've played them)

Oak Pointe
Pine Trace
Bay Harbor
Egypt Valley

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Hurdzan/Fry

Calusa Pines Golf Club
Erin Hills Golf Club
Hamitlon Farm Golf Club
Shelter Harbor Golf Club

[Tim Pitner]

I was trying to think of the best 4 courses of each architect.

I'll start:

Tom Doak

Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kiddnappers
Barnbougle Dunes

I haven't played Doak's courses in Australia or New Zealand, but, from what I've seen and read, it seems like Cape Kidnappers might not belong on this list.  Does anyone who's played it care to chime in?  Would St. Andrew's Beach be the better nominee?

[Steve Lapper]

Hurdzan/Fry

Calusa Pines Golf Club
Erin Hills Golf Club
Hamitlon Farm Golf Club
Shelter Harbor Golf Club

I would strongly suggest substituting their work at Devils Pulpit or Devils Paintbrush ahead of Hamilton Farm

[Bart Bradley]

Justin & Steve--

The two courses that I had the hardest time excluding were Quaker Ridge and Bethpage Black.  I just kept coming back to how much I liked the greens at Somerset Hills versus QR and BB and the quality of the short holes at SH. 

But I wouldn't argue too much against any of your choices though.

For Wayne's benefit, I will take a stab at Flynn....

Shinnecock Hills
Merion East
Huntingdon Valley
Kittansett


As far as Colt goes, it's hard to put together a list for him as he was attributed to a lot of courses but how much of his work was used or is still there is left for question.  Sunningdale Old would be one that pops up immediately as I'm sure he did a lot of work on the course while employed as their Secretary.  Then you places like Rye where the course today doesn't have much of Colt's original design left. 

Wouldn't any Flynn list have to include the Homestead course?

Bart

[Scott Coan]

I was trying to think of the best 4 courses of each architect.

I'll start:

Tom Doak

Ballyneal
Pacific Dunes
Cape Kiddnappers
Barnbougle Dunes

I haven't played Doak's courses in Australia or New Zealand, but, from what I've seen and read, it seems like Cape Kidnappers might not belong on this list.  Does anyone who's played it care to chime in?  Would St. Andrew's Beach be the better nominee?

Having played all 3 of Doak's Aus/NZ courses I cannot imagine how anybody could rank St. Andrew's Beach as being better than Barnbougle or Kidnappers.  Part of it is the WOW factor that both BD & CK possess in spades.  But even if you can somehow separate that out SAB cannot really compare.  It was a fun course to play and I did not lose a single ball at SAB (not the case at BD or CK!) but I found it's routing to be very repetitive in a directional sense.  Nearly every hole played either straight down or upwind and this was very obvious in that we were playing in 30mph on the day. 

As far as anecdotal evidence goes, a group of 12 of us visted Melbourne 2 years ago when we played SAB as part of the itinerary.   We are making a return trip in 2 weeks and not a one put their hand up to play SAB again. 

As far as Kidnappers not belonging in the top four I would find that very difficult to imagine as well.  If one plays it in the ferocious winds that can be had in NZ that it can be virtually unplayable but I have had many more plays of it in calm/slight breeze conditions vs. gale force.  Every hole has something to offer at CK.  The only disappointment to me is that the 18th fails to reinforce the incredible 17 holes that preceed it.

[Sean Leary]

Ted Robinson 

Sahalee
Tijeras creek
Tokatee
Tustin Ranch

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