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paul cowley

Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« on: February 10, 2008, 08:04:02 AM »
Back in the old days...10 years or so back.....part of the design of a golf course was influenced by the way the majority of players hit the ball....either a draw or a fade.

In the fairways or at the green site, much of the bunker placement was short one right, longer one left .....not always, but most designers were aware of this tendency of play and accommodated it on occasion.....[did this favor lefties?].

Anyway, because of equipment change, play now seems more concerned with picking the right straight line, and carry distance.....than the curve of a balls flight and the shaping of a shot.

As a design consequence, I find myself becoming more concerned with carry and carry angles, cape strategies, and hazard placement that affects the player that runs through the fairway because of picking the wrong angle.

....oh, and center line hazards.

Its becoming a much more egalitarian design world out there....at least for me.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 09:57:23 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Dan Herrmann

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2008, 08:43:09 AM »
Paul,
Trust me, I still see a lot of guys hitting big slices.  And I have a nasty tendency to pull out a duck hook at the most unfortunate time.

I doubt the straight ball will really go "that" straight.  Come on - would the USGA allow it?  (yes, I'm being facetious).

I think that Paul's thought ties in nicely with Gil's experiences at Soule Park.

Steve Lang

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2008, 09:40:11 AM »
 8)  I assume you also have to now account for height of hazards too? 
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2008, 11:34:29 AM »
Paul,

I believe that "olde" architecture relied on prefered ball flight and the use of the ground, in concert.

As the game has become more aerial, the significance of pronounced ball flight has been greatly diminished.

Firstly, it's very hard to produce hooks and slices at will.  In addition, fades and draws aren't as easy to produce as they used to be.

Second, the ability to achieve prefered to ideal trajectories has muted the emphasis on ball flight.

Third, this reduces the emphasis on observing, analyzing, planning and executing the planned shot.  Strategy is diminished

Compounding the problem is increased distance

When a golfer had to hit a 2 or 3 iron to a green and a bunker guarded the left side of the green, as a righty, the golfer's prefered play would be a draw to the right.  Distance and trajectory and the juxtaposition of the features demanded that type of shot for the great majority of golfers.

Today, perhaps a 4, 5 or 6 iron would be required, and thus, the golfer could take aim at the flag, without much regard to shaping his approach.

I'd like to see more penal hazards to offset this trend, but, I'm not holding my breath.

I had as much, if not more fun having to hit a 2-iron from 170 yards because my inability to gain trajectory required me to shape my shot as the architect intended.

Quite simply, it was more fun.

Garland Bayley

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2008, 11:50:06 AM »
At the made for TV skills event, (or perhaps it was the Shark shootout) Greg Norman said he loved to watch Bubba Watson play, because Bubba played like they played in the old days shaping the ball flight. He said Bubba is one of the few players with the clubhead speed to shape the current balls.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

CJ Carder

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2008, 05:24:00 PM »
At the made for TV skills event, (or perhaps it was the Shark shootout) Greg Norman said he loved to watch Bubba Watson play, because Bubba played like they played in the old days shaping the ball flight. He said Bubba is one of the few players with the clubhead speed to shape the current balls.


Does hitting a consistently huge hook really qualify as shaping the ball?  And why do I remember Bubba hitting some insanely shaped shot at Oakmont just to hold one of the greens?  Sure he hit it close, but I just seem to remember thinking that only he would have to play that shot b/c he couldn't shape it the other way.

Philippe Binette

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2008, 05:36:35 PM »
if they can't shape it, make the holes so that players who can gain an advantage over players who can't

Bill_McBride

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2008, 06:07:45 PM »
if they can't shape it, make the holes so that players who can gain an advantage over players who can't

Donald Ross designed quite a few holes that required a draw off the tee and fade into the green, or vice versa, and you had a harder time of it if you couldn't produce these shot patterns.

You really don't see much of that today, although most holes pay a premium for good shaping of approach shots.  Or at least a greater margin of error.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2008, 09:52:19 PM »

if they can't shape it, make the holes so that players who can gain an advantage over players who can't


How would you do that ?
[/color]

Peter Pallotta

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2008, 10:11:59 PM »
"...carry and carry angles, cape strategies, and hazard placement that affects the player that runs through the fairway because of picking the wrong angle..."

Paul -

I'm not sure I understand "cape strategies" enough to comment on them, but the other two seem to fit in so nicely with all that is (or will be) good and decent in your world that I'm sure you're on the right track. So, whatever evils of runaway technology brought you to this point are now irrelevant, and we can simply thank them for having served their purposes, which purposes are only now becoming clear.

I trust you will understand what I mean, even if I don't.

Peter

 

Garland Bayley

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2008, 11:41:51 PM »
Admittedly I have not seen Bubba play in person. However, I doubt what you say about him always hitting a hook is true. In the final event at skills, after placing the ball close with a straight shot, he turned to showing off with trying the remaining shots with a hook, much to the chagrin of his partner, because eventually his closest was bettered rendering his team nonwinners.

Tiger also has the high clubspeed and can work the ball both ways. It is the ChiChis of the the world that suffer with the new ball.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2008, 12:34:28 AM »
It was always about encouraging a curved shot anyway, not necessarily demanding it.  It seems like the tee shot - biggest potential to miss - is now more suited to curve strategies, using the cape, doglegs, and dare I say it, narrow fw, to better encourage a shot type, as well as leaving dog legs at 266 yards instead of moving them out to 300 or so, no?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Willie_Dow

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2008, 04:11:51 AM »
Is it equipment change or is it the ball that has eliminated the ability to work the shot ? 

My guess is the solid ball, vs the wound ball ????

TEPaul

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2008, 08:34:09 AM »
"Its becoming a much more egalitarian design world out there....at least for me."

Paul:

If most all golfers are curving the ball less these days due to technologic advances in balls and implements I guess it is becoming a more egalitarian design world out there. If the overall skill level amongst most golfers hasn't changed much I guess it's true to say the ball is generally curving less due to such things as far more perimeter weighting in clubs and low spin balls compared to what golfers used to play.

And if that is true and if more courses are going to firmer and faster conditions, particularly on fairways, I guess you certainly would have to be more concerned about tee shots going through fairways on turning holes and double diagonals and capes and such, particularly if fairways aren't being widened.

But as for golfers intentionally curving balls left or right on purpose or for strategic reasons, to me that is far more myth than reality, certainly in the modern age of golf. I think most golfers and even very good ones basically play what they consider to be their stock shot shape most all the time whether that be a right to left shot, a straight shot or a left to right shot. I think the only time they really attempt to curve a ball is if they are faced with some kind of serious recovery shot that sort of demands that. Furthermore, I think the latter is sort of the world of pretty good golfers anyway---most of the rest don't even attempt curving the ball in some way that's not their stock shape simply because they realize they just aren't capable of doing something like that on demand.

In short, you're probably correct to design for more of a straight ball today compared to years ago.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 08:40:09 AM by TEPaul »

W.H. Cosgrove

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2008, 09:12:26 AM »
I think this topic more than many others embraces the difference in the game today as opposed to twenty years ago. 

The new equipment does allow for a straighter shot.  It also allows for less skill, less challenge and less fun. 

Read what Hogan said about shaping shots.  While he fought a hook early in his career he settled on a fade with the ability to to hit shots into his targets with either a fade or a draw.  He was convinced this was the best way to avoid the hazards. 

While I am admittedly getting older, I would like to go back to shorter courses, balata balls and a club I could turn a little.  This winter I have reshafted my clubs to a softer shaft.  The hope is that some of the creativity will come back to my game.  Hitting it straight all of the time wasn't that much fun.  If anyone is interested, I'll keep you posted on my progress as the rain lets up and the ball starts to roll out of its pitch mark.

There is room for perspective though, I have a relative who after a life of other sports is taking up golf.  His greatest desire is to simply make solid contact. 

Jason Topp

Re: Straight line ball flight...the new strategy.
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2008, 12:05:35 PM »
This thread reminds me of Ron Whitten's Golf digest review of the Quarry.  It is old enough that I see no downside in reproducing it here.  I got it from Jeff;s website
 
http://www.jeffreydbrauer.com/whatsnew.htm



GOLF DIGEST
Course Critic
By Ron Whitten

The Quarry at Giants Ridge, Biwabik, Minnesota

In this post-persimmon age of golf, course strategies no longer involve
working a ball left-to-right or right-to-left through the air. With
forgiving clubfaces and self-correcting balls, everybody plays
point-to-point golf these days, so strategies on new courses more often than not begin once the ball hits the ground, with the terrain of each hole
dictating its shot value.

"What Jeff (Brauer) has conceived amidst deep pits and squeezed among high piles is as fine a set of golf holes as has been produced thus far in the 21st Century."  Nowhere is this more evident than at The Quarry at Giants Ridge, a marvelous new creation amidst the sky blue waters of northeastern Minnesota, a scene-stealing companion to the resort's 1997 original, now called The Legend at Giants Ridge.

Landforms dictate play from the opening tee shot at The Quarry, where you
aim for a dip in the right center of the fairway to gain extra roll, to the
last approach, where you play to a high bank along the left of the green
(avoiding a lake bluff to the right) and let the ball bounce down to the
pin. In between are perhaps the most satisfying collection of sideslopes,
speed slots and backboards ever to be covered with turfgrass.

As the name suggests, this course sits within an old rock and sand quarry. I
was fortunate enough to witness what a revolting dump this abandoned strip mine had become before construction. (There is a certain irony that, back when it was active, this area was called the Embarrass Mine.) So while
course architect Jeff Brauer may modestly suggest in a press statement that, "the mining industry did 90 percent of The Quarry," I'm here to tell you
that the mining industry doesn't know squat about golf course design. But
Brauer does, and he mined his heart, soul and 25 years of design experience in sculpting this Iron Range masterpiece.

"It is already hands-down the finest course in Minnesota." What Jeff has conceived amidst deep pits and squeezed among high piles is as
fine a set of golf holes as has been produced thus far in the 21st Century.
It offers many options, and fabulous photo ops, from every tee box, most of
which are elevated. There are spots where you must get the ball airborne,
but mostly it's a feed-the-ball-to-the-target layout that you could play
with a hockey stick.

It is already hands-down the finest course in Minnesota. Hazeltine National
looks like a cornfield next to it, Interlachen like a quaint museum
artifact. In the national arena, this Quarry will swallow up all Quarries
before it, from Florida to California. It's a combination of Pebble Beach,
Pine Valley, Merion and Tobacco Road, with a bit of architectural Tabasco
sauce sprinkled in for the occasional jolt.

It is the rarest of courses, 18 holes without a single lackluster feature.

Great par-3s? Try the 269-yard fourth, from tees atop old taconite deposits
to a green whose back portion pitches front to back. Or the 189-yard
seventh, an all-or-nothing hole over a quarry chasm, where the correct
choice is to overclub. Or the 158-yard 11th, a pitch uphill over slumbering
hunks of granite to a gull-winged green.

Great par-5s? The S-shaped 575-yard second offers a shortcut to the flag,
but it's between pines, uphill over a long, skinny vein of mined sand. The
downhill, zig-zag 525-yard fifth is reachable in two even for me, but only
if I stay out of a wildflower badlands along the left and slip through a
notch in a hill onto the half-hidden green. At the 514-yard 14th, the
elevated green is even more of a hidden punchbowl, with clusters of birch
left and right ready to add insult to injury.

Long par-4s? They don't get any better than the slowly climbing 478-yard
eighth, where a drive must carry the longest portion of a diagonal waste
bunker on the right in order to provide a glimpse of the green through a
narrow gap between spoil mounds. The putting surface is right out of
Pinehurst, with shaved banks all the way around, save for one little noggin
of deep grass. There's also the controversial 454-yard 15th, where the
fairway stops abruptly about 250 yards off the tee, at which point the hole
turns left and drops 100 feet into a wetlands. Two-hundred yards away is the putting surface, wedged between sand on the left and deep depressions to the right. Big hitters grumble that they can't hit driver on 15, but I say it accomplishes the objective of forcing good players to hit one long iron, or even a fairway wood, onto a par-4 green.

As for short par-4s, long a specialty of Brauer, The Quarry at Giants Ridge
has three of the best ever seen. The 369-yard sixth plays over a vast canyonof sand, traversed by a ribbon of walkway, to a plateau fairway, with thesecond shot over a novel set of grassy, box-car-shaped depressions to a multilevel green curled around an oh-so-nasty Valley of Sin.

From its tee, the 377-yard ninth looks about 20 yards wide, crowded on all
sides by towering, barren hills of rock and stone. But the hidden fairway
fans out to a generous 50 yards, and the perched green is far wider and
deeper than it looks from the bottleneck view at the landing area.

The 323-yard 13th is the most splendid hole of all, a par-4 seemingly as
wide as it is long. It drops down, then down some more, then abruptly up.
There's an 80-yard-wide, two-level fairway split by a center bunker and a
50-yard-wide, but shallow, green sitting above a vertical wall of jungle
outgrowth. You can go for the green from the elevated tee, or play short to
the upper fairway left, or longer to the lower fairway right, or bash one
into the valley just short of the steep wall. The only improvement to this
imaginative hole would be to mow the steep slope behind the green at fairwayheight, to encourage some rebound action for shots that fly the green. Afterall, bounce and kick and roll are what this course is all about.

By any measure, The Quarry is a remarkable new golf course, a resort
destination that more than justifies the journey. It incorporates the
ancient diagonal strategies of lines and angles espoused by C.B. Macdonald
and Seth Raynor, ideas forgotten in the era of Robert Trent Jones, revived
by Pete Dye and reinvigorated by the latest generation of architects. At The
Quarry, Brauer presents them with a fresh, pulse-pounding, grip-tightening
energy that is contagious. Rounds on it will produce many high-fives and
maybe a few low lows. No one who plays The Quarry at Giants Ridge will lackfor emotion.


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