Pebble Beach?

[Tom Zeni]

As former Master's champion Jimmy Demaret once said of Pebble Beach: If you moved it 50 miles inland, no one would have ever heard of it.

OTOH, Pebble has the great good fortune of being on a property that Author Robert Louis Stevenson once reportedly called it  "the most felicitous meeting of land and water that nature has composed.''

And Herbert Warren Wind stated: "If Augusta National is America's most beautiful inland course, then Pebble Beach is surely the most scenic ocean course and probably the world's most beautiful landscape."

So there you have the the rub of the green.

[J_ Crisham]

Ian, I would disagree on your premise that Pebble has only 1 great par 3. The 5th,7th and 17th are pretty special. I can remember playing the old 5th and it was kind of an oddball hole. The new 5th is a great addition in the routing along the water. I will be the first to say that 12 is so so. Have you played here or just seen it on the TV? I feel being there changes some players views.

[Ian Andrew]

Jack,

Played both versions of the 5th - anyone who says they like the old one is too nostolgic for their own good. The new one is much better and in a beautiful location - but it's not in the same class as the great holes like 5th at Pine Valley or the 15th at Cypress Point where the architecture is spectacular.

The 17th is a dog with a beautiful view. I find the design of the green site leaves me flat - its basically a narrow sliver - with very little left for the player to do but execute. zzzzzzzzzz The hole gets all its greatness from a 1 iron and a chip in - not from the genius of its layout.

[James Bennett]

Ian Andrew

IMO, PB#17 has the rare distinction of looking more spectacular on TV than it does to those playing.  As you note, its history of two great shots on the 71st hole of two US Opens adds to its genuine character.  It is a 17th hole, so it has more chance at 'greatness' than say a 5th hole (although Pine Valley does not need that chance for greatness).

A hole like PB #6 greatly eceeded my expectations, whereas #17 left me underwhelmed.  I would feel short-changed playing #17 to the front-right pin, and I expect the back-left pinnable area is such that it would be able to be used perhaps one day in three.  The previous version (?s) of #17 look interesting, but they could never be recreated because of the history attached to the 1-iron and the holed wedge shot.

James B

[Tom_Doak]

Tom H:  If the first and twelfth at Pebble Beach are really "miles better" than the best hole at Santa Teresa, then Santa Teresa must really suck, and I must wonder why you would bother with golf at all.  Those two are just average holes to me ... most courses must have a hole as least as good as the first at Pebble, unless the entire course was mailed in by the architect.

Don't get me wrong, Pebble Beach is a 9 in my book, but it has never been the best course in America, and it never will be, no matter what they do to a few of those holes.  The fact that for many years it and Pinehurst were the ONLY accessible courses among the top 25 has cemented its reputation, but it doesn't make the "ughs" go away.

[Bart Bradley]

Tom H:  If the first and twelfth at Pebble Beach are really "miles better" than the best hole at Santa Teresa, then Santa Teresa must really suck, and I must wonder why you would bother with golf at all.  Those two are just average holes to me ... most courses must have a hole as least as good as the first at Pebble, unless the entire course was mailed in by the architect.

Don't get me wrong, Pebble Beach is a 9 in my book, but it has never been the best course in America, and it never will be, no matter what they do to a few of those holes.  The fact that for many years it and Pinehurst were the ONLY accessible courses among the top 25 has cemented its reputation, but it doesn't make the "ughs" go away.

Tom D:

Maybe, just maybe, number 8 is the best hole in America...and if so, it might just cancel out one UGH.

Bart

[Jay Cox]

IMO, PB#17 has the rare distinction of looking more spectacular on TV than it does to those playing. 

Why do you think this is?
My theory:  it's too flat.  TV solves that problem b/c the camera angle provides height.

[James Bennett]

Jay

I think you are right.  TV has the unique effect of a 'wonderbra' on that piece of 'flat' land on PB #17.  TV normally has the opposite effect, flattening out any undulations and  elevation changes.

James B

[Voytek Wilczak]

IMO, PB#17 has the rare distinction of looking more spectacular on TV than it does to those playing. 

Why do you think this is?
My theory:  it's too flat.  TV solves that problem b/c the camera angle provides height.

Cameras flatten everything.

Ask anybody who's been to ANGC after only seeing it on TV.

They can't believe how hilly it really is.

[Andy Troeger]

Wayne,
Other than a few minor changes I would tend to agree with your numbers. There's a couple holes I'd give more points to (10, 11) but also a couple I might give less (3, 16 would be 7/10 for example). The reason I responded to Tom Doak's post as I did is the difference between giving something a 5/10 and calling it "average" with even a sentence explanation is different than giving it an "ugh" or "yuck" which makes it sound like a 2/10 and not fit for the par three course down the street. Even #1 and #15 deserves a 3-4.

I find it interesting how on other courses people say how some of the great courses are greater than the sum of their parts etc then change their tune and do hole-by-hole descriptions at Pebble Beach. Not picking on anyone specifically, but Pebble partially because of being well-known gets picked apart on the hole level more than any course on here.

Andy--
Any course that is truly great shines under such examination, if Pebble Doesn't then its because it isn't as good as those that do...

Joe,
I find it does stand up just fine to that examination even though others are welcome to disagree, it won't change my opinion of the place.

Ian,
I did not play the original #5 but the new version is very cool, #7 needs no explanation, and if #17 is the third best par three on the course then I'm not going to find many courses that beat that set. CPC would of course be one that would.

[Tom Zeni]

The 17th has always left me cold. I still recall seeing it for the first time, as it's at a 90* to the #4 tee.  It's really nothing to look at. What you see is a strip of grass to Carmel Bay.  If I didn't notice the large hedge to the right where the interviews were held by McCord and others, I doubt I'd have recognized anything else.

What makes it worth watching on television is the that the shot is from behind the green, or above it. That gives it it's perspective.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I've always felt that # 17 was a solid par 3.

It's got an angled hourglass green, good bunkering, trouble long and left and is prone to .... the WIND.

And, it serves as a great connector.

In what context can it be deemed to be an inferior hole ?

[Dan King]

Joe Bentham writes:
Any course that is truly great shines under such examination, if Pebble Doesn't then its because it isn't as good as those that do...

Cool. Who knew judging greatness could be so easy?

So the way to judge music? Look at the notes. Judging film? Look at the frames. Photography? Pixels.

Bit of a problem. I went to the Great Wall of China once, and noticed they had some crappy bricks. Guess they should call it the Mediocre Wall of China.

My opinion, all of you who can reach the second green with a 5-iron second shot should swear off Pebble Beach. I'd love to be able to play the course again for less than $100.

Cheers,
Grandan King

The name Pebble Beach might suggest a seaside course in the manner of the links of Britain. But it is far from that. I can think of no approximate parallel.
 --Pat Ward-Thomas, 1966

[Jim Nugent]

The only tiny disagreement is this:  PB is one of the world's greatest courses as is.  Restore key parts of it and it may well rise to #1.

TH

Tom, how do you restore Pebble to make it #1?

I'd be interested in seeing match play between PB and other great courses, from anyone who knows them.  Pine Valley, CPC, Shinnie, TOC, ANGC are some examples. 

I think this would be an interesting feature for GCA.com, alongside "In My Opinion", "My Home Course" and the other parts of this site that appear on the left side of the page. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Food for thought....

Pine Valley has 3 world class par threes and a damned good one
Cypress Point has at two stunners with two real good ones to back that up
National has three great ones

It goes on and on through the greztest courses until you look at Pebble.....

Pebble Beach has one great three - and the others don't stack up well when you talk of other great courses.

The great holes are special - no question - but this course is less consistantly in terms of quality than any other top 10 course in the World.

Ian sums it up well.

[Sean_A]

This thread doesn't instill much confidence that the $495 green fee plus caddy/cart would be money well spent.  Mind you, I am not sure enough could be said to make me reach that deep into my pocket. 

Ciao

[wsmorrison]

Still no comments about my proposed changes on an earlier post.  Still no response about what restorations could make Pebble Beach the number one course.   

Pebble Beach vs. Pine Valley
1.  PV 
2.  PV
3.  PV
4.  PV
5.  PV
6.  even
7.  even
8.  PB
9.  PV
10.  PV
11.  PV
12.  PV
13.  PV
14.  PB
15.  PV
16.  PV
17.  PV
18.  even

13-3-2

Pebble Beach vs. Shinnecock Hills
1.  SH
2.  SH
3.  SH
4.  even
5.  SH
6.  SH
7.  even
8.  PB
9.  SH
10.  SH
11.  SH
12.  SH
13.  SH
14.  SH
15.  SH
16.  SH
17.  SH
18.  even

14-1-3

Pebble Beach vs. Merion East
1.  ME
2.  ME
3.  ME
4.  ME
5.  ME
6.  even
7.  PB
8.  PB
9.  ME
10.  PB
11.  ME
12.  ME
13.  even
14.  ME
15.  ME
16.  ME
17.  ME
18.  ME

13-3-2

As per Ian's post, a sampling of US Courses with a better collection of par 3s
NGLA
Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Oakmont
Bedford Springs
Sand Hills
Maidstone
Merion East
Merion West - OK they're about even
Lancaster CC
Cascades
Kittansett
Manufacturers
Rolling Green
Lehigh CC
Philadelphia Country
Huntingdon Valley
Indian Creek
Shinnecock Hills
Pocantico Hills

[Mark_Fine]

Tom Doak,
Just curious, would you consider #1 at The Old Course an "ugh" as well?  If not, why not 

Pebble Beach is one of those examples of where the pure "golf architecture" as we define it here, just doesn't really matter quite as much as it does elsewhere.  As much as I love to study and analyze a golf course, if you are focusing on analyzing every bunker location and green contour as you play your round, you are missing one of the greatest walks in golf.  Every hole doesn't have to be a 9 or 10 for the course to be a 9 or 10.  Is the architecture better at Pine Valley, absolutely it is.  Does it matter at Pebble Beach, no!  If the architecture was that good one every hole Pebble would be a 15!  Pebble is one of those courses that for whatever the reason, you never tire of playing there.  It is a course that any one who calls themself a golfer needs to experience at least once in their lifetime.  And if you are lucky enough to play it a few dozen times, just thank the Lord 

By the way, TV doesn't do it justice.  It is far more spectacular in person.

[Tom_Doak]

Mark:

I find every hole on The Old Course at St. Andrews more interesting than the first at Pebble Beach.  And I think the first at St. Andrews is a WAY better opening hole than the first at Pebble.

The fact that many people love Pebble doesn't mean everybody does, or should.  This thread would be ample proof of that, if those of you who loved Pebble so much were better at reading comprehension.  It is a great course, but it's far away from perfect.

[Adam Clayman]

Wayne, Perhaps Ran can respond to your question on what aspects need to be restored? Or, at least detail why it's one of golf's greatest architectural blunders.

Patrick,
 While ME may be a three course meal, ending with the most demanding holes, Pebble's dynamic might best be described as "Dim Sum".

Who watched the pros play #11 yesterday?
 For an ugh hole it sure did give these guys fits because they played it improperly. That aside, I feel when one turns their back on the ocean, after having just experienced one of golf's greatest stretches, it's hard not be considered an ugh. The hole has merits beginning with the semi-blind tee shot, and it's severely sloping small green requires perfect execution on approach. Another aspect that makes the hole better than an ugh is depending on which side of the fairway your tee shot ends up, gives a totally different look. Any ball that is not left side is blinded to the proper placement on approach. Which is short left, staying below the hole. 

Ian, Nostalgia has nothing to fo with it. The new fifth hole has yielded more aces than the old hole did for 80 years. It's flowus interuptus is diametrically opposed to the old route which unveiled the sixth in a manner which few architects can ever do. Add in the new monstrosities built for Mr. Allen and that other guy, and you have a an ocean side hole which falls flat on the demand and inspiring side.

Tom D.- The Mona Lisa isn't perfect, either.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H:  If the first and twelfth at Pebble Beach are really "miles better" than the best hole at Santa Teresa, then Santa Teresa must really suck, and I must wonder why you would bother with golf at all.  Those two are just average holes to me ... most courses must have a hole as least as good as the first at Pebble, unless the entire course was mailed in by the architect.

Don't get me wrong, Pebble Beach is a 9 in my book, but it has never been the best course in America, and it never will be, no matter what they do to a few of those holes.  The fact that for many years it and Pinehurst were the ONLY accessible courses among the top 25 has cemented its reputation, but it doesn't make the "ughs" go away.

Tom D.:  you are obviously a long way removed from playing munis. That's cool, you're busy with great golf courses, this is to be expected.  But the point isn't that Santa Teresa sucks - it's a decent enough muni - the point does remain that there's no way on God's green earth that either #1 or #12 are "ugh" or "yuk" golf holes - not in a world of boring featureless munis, my friend.  Each of #1 and #12 PB have a lot more going for them than you give credit - a LOT more.  #1 requires an interesting choice off the tee, and has a fantastic green with darn subtle contours - maddening contours I'd say.  I know, I four putted it once.  That's "ugh"?  #12 has an interesting short bunker which drove my Dad nuts, and for me, well it's not the greatest or most interesting golf hole, but it is a difficult shot with another difficult PB green.  Once you miss it the chips are really tough, also.  I just can't see it as a yuk golf hole - not in my world, anyway.

In any case, very cool that you see PB as a 9 overall - I figured you hadn't gone that off the deep end to deny that.  But my beef is more about these individual golf holes.  And I truly believe you need to seem some real UGHs and YUKs before you call these such.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

The only tiny disagreement is this:  PB is one of the world's greatest courses as is.  Restore key parts of it and it may well rise to #1.

TH

Tom, how do you restore Pebble to make it #1?

That's Adam's world, not mine.  I was just commenting on how PB should be seen overall.  Some say it needs restoration or improvement or the like to even get in the discussion.  I believe it's in the discussion of the world's greats as is, and given some improvements or restorations (which require minds far greater or more attuned to history than mine) it could rise to #1.

As for match play, PB's always gonna lose to other greats if you go hole by hole, pure match play.  But make it a 10 point must system or the like and PB holds it's head up just fine.

Wayne - your assessments differ greatly from mine, at least re the one I could do.  I did Shinnecock v. Pebble and it came out Shinnecock 2 and 1.  To each his own.... but methinks you need to come and see Pebble again. 

TH

[George Pazin]

It's funny, I always found the level nature of 17 to be the thing that made the hole most fascinating for me personally. Add a little height to the tee and it's just another mundane drop shot par 3, albeit with a fantastic backdrop (which wouldn't be as prominent if the hole were downhill).

[Ian Andrew]

Adam,

I can certainly understand your comment about flow.

I also enjoyed going out to the ocean and then back into the trees and coming out to the ocean again. Your right, nothing beat coming out to the 6th tee.

I guess I'm just judging one hole against the other - the old hole doesn't compare to the new oceanside setting - but I see your point in the overall context

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam,

I can certainly understand your comment about flow.

I also enjoyed going out to the ocean and then back into the trees and coming out to the ocean again. Your right, nothing beat coming out to the 6th tee.

I guess I'm just judging one hole against the other - the old hole doesn't compare to the new oceanside setting - but I see your point in the overall context

Ian:  please understand that Adam and I share love for PB as a whole, but disagree completely re #5.  He sees negative flow issues now, where I see an improvement.  He sees an easier golf hole, where I see a far more inspiring one.  We pretty much disagree on every aspect of the comparison, and we have had multipage battles over it in the past.  Now as I've already said in this thread, there is no need for us to battle it again - just do understand Ian that his side is compelling, but it is not the only way to look at it.  For me I understand and acknowledge all he says, but it still comes out as an overall net positive today.  He sees it as a net negative.  Fair enough.