Pebble Beach?

[Ted Kramer]

The members of this discussion group tend to break things down into their smaller parts in order to gain clarity on the issue at hand. I'm not sure that a golf course is simply the sum of these smaller parts. While I enjoy the dissection and inspection of golf courses and holes, I'm not sure that "truth of the matter" can be reached by this type of exercise. . .

Pebble Beach, as an experience, was simply wonderful for me.
I found myself looking around for the better part of that round thinking, "I can't believe how lucky I am, this must be the most beautiful place in the world".

A few holes were certainly less than exceptional, maybe even marginal. But with that being said, I can't imagine being anything less than thrilled with the idea of playing Pebble again and again.

Pebble is not the best course I've ever played.
I rank it below Shinnecock.
I rank it very close to Pac Dunes, I could give either course the edge on any given day.
I rank Pebble ahead of Bethpage Black, and I love the Black.

A few of my thoughts . . .

#1 and #2 could be anywhere, those holes did nothing for me.
#3 is nothing less than a great hole in my opinion.
#4 and #5 really build the excitement.
#6 - #10 is about as good a stretch as I can imagine.
#14 is the standard by which I judge any and all holes described as "3 shot par 5s"
#16 doesn't get enough credit.
#17 maybe the most disappointed I've ever been in terms of what I expected to see vs. what I saw on a golf course.
#18 All world par 5 - the feeling on that tee was pure joy, I was smiling ear to ear, I doubt I'll ever forget it.

I play golf because I enjoy it. My round at Pebble was one of the most enjoyable of my life.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted:

Exceedingly well-said.  I too think that what tends to get lost sometimes is consideration of the experience as a whole.  And in that vein, I too had the single most enjoyable round of my life there... so it's hard for me to criticize the place too much.

One quibble:  I continue to be mystified by thoughts like "#1 and #2 could be anywhere."  I suppose for one with a constant diet of Shinnecock, Pine Valley and Merion, that could be true.  But I find a lot to love about each of #1 and #2, and as I've said in posts to Tom Doak about #1 and #12, transport either to my local muni and they instantly become the best hole on the course.  So this is all relative... and certainly if one was to rank the great golf holes in the world, none of #1, 2, or 12 PB would enter the conversation... But man it's weird to me people calling them ugh or yuk or saying they could be anywhere.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

Exceedingly well-said.  I too think that what tends to get lost sometimes is consideration of the experience as a whole.  And in that vein, I too had the single most enjoyable round of my life there... so it's hard for me to criticize the place too much.

One quibble:  I continue to be mystified by thoughts like "#1 and #2 could be anywhere."  I suppose for one with a constant diet of Shinnecock, Pine Valley and Merion, that could be true.  But I find a lot to love about each of #1 and #2, and as I've said in posts to Tom Doak about #1 and #12, transport either to my local muni and they instantly become the best hole on the course.  So this is all relative... and certainly if one was to rank the great golf holes in the world, none of #1, 2, or 12 PB would enter the conversation... But man it's weird to me people calling them ugh or yuk or saying they could be anywhere.

TH

Ok Huck, let me put it this way . . .
You've never seen the course, and you only know one person who has seen/played it, and the only info that you've ever gotten is from this one person and he said simply, "Pebble Beach is an amazing golf course. It is truly a special place/course".

Now you've gotten through the first two holes. Which of the statements below best describes your thoughts/feelings?

1. Wow, my buddy was right, this place a amazing.
2. Those were two pretty good holes, if it keeps up like this I'll be very very happy and share my buddies opinion of this being a special place.
3. Ok, decent start, a solid par 4 and par 5, I love this kind of golf.
4. Not the best opening holes I've ever seen, but not bad golf, just nothing special.
5. Amazing? I'm failing to see it. I hope gets better, a lot better, and fast.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted:

My honest take is #2 or #3 on your list.  I'd just wonder about anyone who said #5.

But again, it's just a quibble.  Far more important is taking the course as a whole.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:

My honest take is #2 or #3 on your list.  I'd just wonder about anyone who said #5.

But again, it's just a quibble.  Far more important is taking the course as a whole.

TH

I'm a #4. But again, and like you, it doesn't take away from my feelings about the course as a whole. Pebble is a very special place . . .

-Ted

[TEPaul]

""The worst hole at PB (I'd say #1 or #12) is miles better than the best hole at Santa Teresa."

Tom,

Respectfully, I must say that your comment has very little significance."


Wayno:


It may be of no significance to compare Pebble to Santa Teresa for that reason but I can tell you right now Pebble better watch its ass if somebody wants to do a hole by hole comparison between Pebble and Fernandina Beach Municipal.

[tlavin]

Ted:

Exceedingly well-said.  I too think that what tends to get lost sometimes is consideration of the experience as a whole.  And in that vein, I too had the single most enjoyable round of my life there... so it's hard for me to criticize the place too much.

One quibble:  I continue to be mystified by thoughts like "#1 and #2 could be anywhere."  I suppose for one with a constant diet of Shinnecock, Pine Valley and Merion, that could be true.  But I find a lot to love about each of #1 and #2, and as I've said in posts to Tom Doak about #1 and #12, transport either to my local muni and they instantly become the best hole on the course.  So this is all relative... and certainly if one was to rank the great golf holes in the world, none of #1, 2, or 12 PB would enter the conversation... But man it's weird to me people calling them ugh or yuk or saying they could be anywhere.

TH

Ok Huck, let me put it this way . . .
You've never seen the course, and you only know one person who has seen/played it, and the only info that you've ever gotten is from this one person and he said simply, "Pebble Beach is an amazing golf course. It is truly a special place/course".

Now you've gotten through the first two holes. Which of the statements below best describes your thoughts/feelings?

1. Wow, my buddy was right, this place a amazing.
2. Those were two pretty good holes, if it keeps up like this I'll be very very happy and share my buddies opinion of this being a special place.
3. Ok, decent start, a solid par 4 and par 5, I love this kind of golf.
4. Not the best opening holes I've ever seen, but not bad golf, just nothing special.
5. Amazing? I'm failing to see it. I hope gets better, a lot better, and fast.

-Ted

The only problem with your analysis, Ted, is one of context.  You know you're playing Pebble Beach when you tee off at the rather vanilla #1 and its bland companion, #2.  In fact, you've probably already taken a gander at the 18th hole before you've ambled over to the first tee.  AND, you've been anticipating playing this course like none other, if you're like most other golfers, so you're willing to forgive the blandness of the first couple holes.  If you're like most players, you're willing to forgive some of the other stinkers out there because you're PLAYING PEBBLE FRICKING BEACH.  If it was a private course, there's almost no way you would ever be allowed to play, but it's an overpriced resort, so you are dumping a huge dollar to play the shrine.  At the end of the round, you'll mentally genuflect and head to the Tap Room for a pint.  By then, your pulse rate may have slowed down.

Now, mind you, I agree that there are at least five forgettable holes.  Many of the others are unforgettable, so their presence is more than forgivable, IMHO.

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted:

My honest take is #2 or #3 on your list.  I'd just wonder about anyone who said #5.

But again, it's just a quibble.  Far more important is taking the course as a whole.

TH

I'm a #4. But again, and like you, it doesn't take away from my feelings about the course as a whole. Pebble is a very special place . . .

-Ted

I can live with #4.
I can't live with calling either hole "ugh" or "yuk."

[Ted Kramer]

A few questions for Huck and or anyone else who'd care to answer . . .
Which hole do you prefer #1 at Pebble or #1 at Pac Dunes?
#18 at Pebble or #18 at Pac Dunes?
Which course do you prefer, Pebble or Pac Dunes?

-Ted

[Kalen Braley]

Ted,

I'm not sure what the value of the exercise is intended to be...but for the record.

I'd take 1 at PD over PB and 18 at PB over PD.  As for the course I would play more rounds at PD, but only because of the price disparity.  If they are both the same price, I split my rounds 5 and 5.

[Tom Huckaby]

Well now, let's cut to the chase, Ted.  

#1 PD over #1 PB - I really like the former - dig the blindness and weirdness of it.

#18 PB over #18 PD, in a large way.  The latter is a pretty darn good golf hole, the former is the greatest finishing hole in golf.

Overall course:  PB over PD.  And that's no offense to the latter; I'd say they are both quite worthy of the high rankings and accolades each receives, and I do love PD.  I just do prefer PB.

LATE EDIT - I like the way Kalen did this also.  And yes, I too have factored out price.  I can't afford to play either, but I REALLY can't afford to play Pebble.  But make me rich, and I'd put it 6 for PB, 4 for PD.  That's pretty darn good... I wouldn't give 4 to many other courses, that's for sure.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Ted,

I'm not sure what the value of the exercise is intended to be...but for the record.

I'd take 1 at PD over PB and 18 at PB over PD.  As for the course I would play more rounds at PD, but only because of the price disparity.  If they are both the same price, I split my rounds 5 and 5.

I don't think that there is value to the exercise beyond satisfying my curiosity . . . I don't have any agenda.

I like #1 and #18 Pebble better than those of Pac Dunes, but I'm not sure which course I like better overall . . .If I had only 1 round left to play, I'd choose Pebble. If I had 10 to split I'd probably go 5-5, but I could go 6-4 in favor of Pac Dunes. I don't think I'd go 6-4 in favor of Pebble.

-Ted

[Mark_Fine]

Could #1 at Pebble Beach be one of the best starting holes in golf?  Think about it - the tee sits right in front of the pro shop and in a setting where there is always a gathering of people to help add further intimidation to the opening tee shot.  Goosebumps are prevalent as most every golfer knows/anticipates what lies ahead (#1 is almost like the entry way out into the stadium).  It is not an overly difficult hole (less than 400 yards in length) so it is playable for every level of golfer.  The fairway is miles wide at the 180-220 yard range (though it looks so much tighter standing on the tee).  A yawning bunker stares back at the tee as it turns the dogleg.  The temptation exists to gamble with a driver but the fear of a double cross left or a block OB right on the opening hole is usually enough to choose the safer alternative (no one likes to trip as they run into the stadium)    This leaves a delicate shot to a green that is open in front but guarded by deep bunkers that truly are hazardous.  The green surface has more contour than one would think and the ocean affect becomes clear after the first putt.  

I’m not sure what more you could ask for in an opening hole on a course like this.  Maybe a few here need to play it a several times to appreciate just how well it fits as a start for this golf course.  Also, could some of us have fallen into that theory that to be a great golf course, every hole has to be a 10 and worthy of being a dreaded “signature” hole.  Sometimes simple is better and #1 at Pebble might be a case in point.  

[Ted Kramer]

Could #1 at Pebble Beach be one of the best starting holes in golf?  Think about it - the tee sits right in front of the pro shop and in a setting where there is always a gathering of people to help add further intimidation to the opening tee shot.  Goosebumps are prevalent as most every golfer knows/anticipates what lies ahead (#1 is almost like the entry way out into the stadium).  It is not an overly difficult hole (less than 400 yards in length) so it is playable for every level of golfer.  The fairway is miles wide at the 180-220 yard range (though is looks so much tighter standing on the tee).  A yawning bunker stares back at the tee as it turns the dogleg.  The temptation exists to gamble with a driver but the fear of a double cross left or a block OB right on the opening hole is usually enough to choose the safer alternative (no one likes to trip as they run into the stadium)    This leaves a delicate shot to a green that is open in front but guarded by deep bunkers that truly are hazardous.  The green surface has more contour than one would think and the ocean affect becomes clear after the first putt. 

I’m not sure what more you could ask for in an opening hole on a course like this.  Maybe a few here need to play it a several times to appreciate just how well it fits as a start for this golf course.  Also, could some of us have fallen into that theory that to be a great golf course, every hole has to be a 10 and worthy of being a dreaded “signature” hole.  Sometimes simple is better and #1 at Pebble might be a case in point. 

Interesting take. Would it be fair to say that the "greatness" of #1 according to the comments above is directly related to what comes next? Is #1 great all by itself or only because of how it fits with the rest of the course/experience. Again, interesting take.

-Ted

[Kalen Braley]

I've been following this thread for a couple of days and been mostly curious how a course that allegedly has a handful of "ugh" and "yuck" holes can be a 9 on the Doak Scale?  Here are the qualities of a 9 by definition:

"9- An outstanding course – certainly one of the best in the world – with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length, or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life."

This begs a couple of questions:

1) Does a "ugh" or "yuck" equate to "poor"?.  Based on the definition of poor its not a stretch that a ugh or yuck hole would equate to poor, if not at least be a subset of poor.

2) Could a course with not only one poor hole, but potentionally several still be classified as a 9?

It seems to me and few others that holes like 1, 2, 12, 15 are not best defined as poor.  Are they better defined as better than average without being special?  I would make that argument.

So the question in my mind is, can Pebble with 4 average to above average holes still be a 9?  Or is Pebble a 9 because its best holes also happen to be very outstanding holes?

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

Pebble is a 9 because it has several of the best holes in the world, which overcome the ughs.  Or maybe they're just "average" holes, I don't go out and play many average courses, so my perspective is surely warped; that's why my standards are pretty high.  (On the other hand, if Mark Fine wants to make the case that Pebble has the best opening hole in golf, I'd say he is warped in another direction.)

By the definition I wrote, Pebble doesn't really deserve the 9 -- especially since it isn't usually in great condition, and it's barely long enough for a championship anymore.  But then again, so are most of the other 9's and 10's.  What is the world coming to?

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen:

Pebble is a 9 because it has several of the best holes in the world, which overcome the ughs.  Or maybe they're just "average" holes, I don't go out and play many average courses, so my perspective is surely warped; that's why my standards are pretty high.  (On the other hand, if Mark Fine wants to make the case that Pebble has the best opening hole in golf, I'd say he is warped in another direction.)

By the definition I wrote, Pebble doesn't really deserve the 9 -- especially since it isn't usually in great condition, and it's barely long enough for a championship anymore.  But then again, so are most of the other 9's and 10's.  What is the world coming to?

Now why didn't you say this in the first place?  You could have save me a lot of keystrokes.

 

I most definitely DO play a lot of average and far less than average courses... thus my queries about calling any hole at PB ugh or yuk.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

I remain mystified as to how anyone can claim that # 2 is an "ugh" or "plain" hole.

Perhaps a view from Google Earth would show how the 2nd tee sits about 40 or so yards short of the 1st green, the angle of attack into the fairway bunkers, one of which serves as a cross bunker, the fronting barranca cross bunker, the narrow green well protected by surrounding bunkers and the general theme of the hole.

It's a terrific par 5.

In what context are the naysayers indicating that it's an "ugh" or "plain" hole ?

[Steve Kline]

Here are my thoughts on how PB ranks comapred to other courses.

I only played Pebble because I was invited by a vendor on all expenses paid trip. We played the course twice as well as Spyglass and Spanish Bay. The trip was awesome and our rounds at Pebble were extremely cool. The ocean holes were spectacular.

I played Pine Valley a few years at the invitations of our 401k provider. 45 holes, two nights, and the most unbelievable golf experience of my life.

I played Cruden Bay a couple of years. 36 holes in one day. I thought the place was awesome.

The only way I'd ever go back to PB is by the invitation of the previously mentioned vendor. It was fun, but no way would I pay that out of my own pocket. I would give virtually anything to get back to PV. And, I'll gladly pay my way to play Cruden Bay again.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom Huckaby,

I remain mystified as to how anyone can claim that # 2 is an "ugh" or "plain" hole.

Perhaps a view from Google Earth would show how the 2nd tee sits about 40 or so yards short of the 1st green, the angle of attack into the fairway bunkers, one of which serves as a cross bunker, the fronting barranca cross bunker, the narrow green well protected by surrounding bunkers and the general theme of the hole.

It's a terrific par 5.

In what context are the naysayers indicating that it's an "ugh" or "plain" hole ?

Pat:  I think they just must put in in the context of the absolute greatest holes in the world.  In that, I could at least see the argument calling it ugh or yuk. They also might be looking at it in the context of the pros and other huge hitters making it reachable with a mid-iron... to that end, it's no great shakes I suppose.

But for all of the rest of us, I fully concur it's a terrific par 5.  I know I damn well have to think about the barranca crossing big time... and once again it's a subtle yet maddening PB green.  I do like the hole a lot.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Here are my thoughts on how PB ranks comapred to other courses.

I only played Pebble because I was invited by a vendor on all expenses paid trip. We played the course twice as well as Spyglass and Spanish Bay. The trip was awesome and our rounds at Pebble were extremely cool. The ocean holes were spectacular.

I played Pine Valley a few years at the invitations of our 401k provider. 45 holes, two nights, and the most unbelievable golf experience of my life.

I played Cruden Bay a couple of years. 36 holes in one day. I thought the place was awesome.

The only way I'd ever go back to PB is by the invitation of the previously mentioned vendor. It was fun, but no way would I pay that out of my own pocket. I would give virtually anything to get back to PV. And, I'll gladly pay my way to play Cruden Bay again.

That's a good way to look at it, Steve.

But picture this:  you're first group off Pebble on an uncrowded day (caused by rains the day before, mucho cancellations).  It's a crisp 60 degree morning, light wind, enough to effect some shots but not enough to get things crazy.  It's you and your Dad, and you basically have the course to yourselves.  You play unhurriedly in a little over 3.5 hours. 

Would that change your mind about how to value the experience?

I'd pay anything to do that again.  Of course it's not reality.  But then neither is playing Pine Valley, for a guy like me.  And I have been to Cruden Bay twice, absolutely love it.  But make things a bit more equal in terms of experience (ie eliminate the crowds), and well... I'd split 10 rounds between PB and CB about 7-3 in favor of the former.

TH

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

You cannot be serious.  The best opening hole in golf?  There are hundreds better.  I cannot imagine one person, other than yourself, that would even suppose the possibility of that being considered let alone true. 

In my opinion it is a mediocre hole anyway you look and even worse in the context of great golf courses.  It is a slightly below average hole in the context of average courses.  And for Tom Huckaby, it is a good hole in the context of mediocre golf courses. 

There is a lot more anticipation, ambiance, spectators and the like at a great many other courses.  I ask a lot more of an opening hole on a world-class golf course.   

I don't need to play it anymore times to change my mind about it.

I haven't found a course yet that has all 10/10 holes.   Yet a world-class golf course cannot in my mind have so many mediocre holes.   In my mind Pebble Beach is a strong 7, maybe a borderline 8 on the Morrison Modified Doak Scale (MMDS). 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

Pebble is a 9 because it has several of the best holes in the world, which overcome the ughs.  Or maybe they're just "average" holes, I don't go out and play many average courses, so my perspective is surely warped; that's why my standards are pretty high.  (On the other hand, if Mark Fine wants to make the case that Pebble has the best opening hole in golf, I'd say he is warped in another direction.)

By the definition I wrote, Pebble doesn't really deserve the 9 -- especially since it isn't usually in great condition, and it's barely long enough for a championship anymore.  But then again, so are most of the other 9's and 10's.  What is the world coming to?

Tom,

I had suspected that average may have been more what you had in mind.  But as you say, if you dine on Filet Mignon and Lobster most of the time, then I suppose a plain old T-Bone could seem to be less than satisfactory.  

Pebbles length is very interesting though.  Based on yardage alone, I would agree it seems improbable they could ever host a PGA tour event there, much less a major.  But its defended so well at the greens.  In looking at yesterdays final round scores at Pebble, only 5 players shot in the 60s...so I think its still very viable as a championship course.

What really boggles me is how they can keep those teeny greens alive and in decent puttable condition with the massive amount of play the course gets.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom Huckaby,

I remain mystified as to how anyone can claim that # 2 is an "ugh" or "plain" hole.

Perhaps a view from Google Earth would show how the 2nd tee sits about 40 or so yards short of the 1st green, the angle of attack into the fairway bunkers, one of which serves as a cross bunker, the fronting barranca cross bunker, the narrow green well protected by surrounding bunkers and the general theme of the hole.

It's a terrific par 5.

In what context are the naysayers indicating that it's an "ugh" or "plain" hole ?

Pat,

Here is your aerial

[Tom Huckaby]

And for Tom Huckaby, it is a good hole in the context of mediocre golf courses. 

That's stretching my belief a bit to far, Wayne.  I'd say it's a good hole in the context of any golf course.  I'm not sure I'm ready to take it as far on the positive side as Mark does, but let's just say I am way closer to his take than to yours.

And we do need to get you out here to play the course again.  Someone must have spit on you or something 20 years ago for you to think so little of this great golf course.  The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, that's all I can say.

TH