Pebble Beach?

[Andy Troeger]

Wayne,
Other than a few minor changes I would tend to agree with your numbers. There's a couple holes I'd give more points to (10, 11) but also a couple I might give less (3, 16 would be 7/10 for example). The reason I responded to Tom Doak's post as I did is the difference between giving something a 5/10 and calling it "average" with even a sentence explanation is different than giving it an "ugh" or "yuck" which makes it sound like a 2/10 and not fit for the par three course down the street. Even #1 and #15 deserves a 3-4.

I find it interesting how on other courses people say how some of the great courses are greater than the sum of their parts etc then change their tune and do hole-by-hole descriptions at Pebble Beach. Not picking on anyone specifically, but Pebble partially because of being well-known gets picked apart on the hole level more than any course on here.

[paul cowley]

Personally I think Pebble reached its high water mark in the 70's and has been going downhill since about the time it recieved wall to wall irrigation and cartpaths.

I think the only way it can be improved and/or restored would be by putting it under the scalpel for a sympathetic renovation/ partial re design.

Although I know it will not happen, I still feel the course could be improved by playing #13 through #9 in reverse.......or at least that's how I would have routed it had I been around in the 20's.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

From what tees are you making your assessment.

Have you ever played the back, back tees, some of which are almost hidden ?

# 2 from the BACK tee is a wonderful hole.  It brings the bunkers and
      barranca into play, creating decisions for the golfer.

# 3 the same, do you play safe or challenge the carry ?

[paul cowley]

Patrick.....I agree about #2....it used to be one of my favorites when the ball didn't go as far. It was always an option for me to reach it in two, and I've made a few 3's there from the back.....but by using driver and 2 or 3 wood.....not driver 5 iron.

Didn't they play it as a par four during its last major? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Paul Cowley,

I believe they did, but, you can't view a  hole in the sole context of how the best golfers in the world, the PGA Tour Pros, play it.

You have to view it in the context of how the golfing universe plays it.

# 2 tee is in front of # 1 green, toward # 1 tee.

For the golfing universe it's a terrific par 5.

[paul cowley]

....that's even more scary because I don't remember them that far back when I played there regularly....but that was circa 1970's.

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

The last time I played the course was about 10 years ago with a persimmon driver and balata ball.  I played from the then back tees.  The back tee was about 500 yards on the 2nd and I never tried to go for it in 2.  Maybe that is one reason why I found it rather dull even with that cool barranca, the first I'd ever seen.  On the third hole, I tried to carry the corner the first time I played.  I hit the tops of the trees and it kicked into the right rough.  That's a tough approach from the right, especially to a right pin.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pebble Beach sets the west coast standard for "most discussed / argued over" course on this site.  We muve have covered 100 pages on it at least over the years.  So I have no desire to reopen old wounds... I'd just say on the overall I concur completely with Andy Troeger's assessments here.

And here's a good one two - safe this for posterity - as pertains to #2 and 3, I concur completely with the very astute, very wise Pat Mucci.
 

Just don't ask either of us to assess old #5 v. new #5.

Outside of this pithiness, man I have to say anyone who calls ANY hole at PB "ugh" or "yuck" needs to come play some munis.  Tom Doak, you're better than that.  I'll chalk that post up to a bad night.

The worst hole at PB (I'd say #1 or #12) is miles better than the best hole at Santa Teresa.

TH

[Adam Clayman]

I suspect a lot of people like to have their juices flowing from the get go. Pebble is much more
of a great course than a collection of 18 good/great holes.
The 15th is the perfect example of how current management is ignorant to the importance of ebb and flow. Now, instead of having a semi-breather tee shot, the LZ is littered with thoughtless bunkering. After playing the 14th most normal humans need that breather.

While Tom Doak might consider the first hole to be an ugh. the green complex is a marvelous introduction. I suspect it would rise considerably if the old teeing ground was re-implemented. It's uphill nature would make the drive much more in keeping with some of the other key holes on the course. i.e. 8 and 11.

As Ran Morrissett has written, the course would be one of the greatest if it was restored to original glory. In other words, the bones are there.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam:  well said.  And as much as we disagree about old 5 v. new 5 (please, no need to cover that again, I just want it out there for the record for the newbies that there is a dissenting viewpoint on that), I concur with darn near all of that.  The only tiny disagreement is this:  PB is one of the world's greatest courses as is.  Restore key parts of it and it may well rise to #1.

TH

[wsmorrison]

"The worst hole at PB (I'd say #1 or #12) is miles better than the best hole at Santa Teresa."

Tom,

Respectfully, I must say that your comment has very little significance.  We're talking about a course that a great many regard as one of the very best in the world.  In my mind, for it to have so many more than one or two mediocre holes, it is not one of the world's greatest courses, let alone has a chance to be the greatest.  A course like Pebble Beach that has several world-class holes is just that.  There are too many flaws.  Comparing it to the best holes on municipal courses has little meaning, to me.  Even still, I've played a fair number of munis and there are a number of holes at Cobb's Creek in Philadelphia that are superior in design to the mediocre holes at Pebble Beach. 

Comparing the mediocre holes at Pebble Beach to the lesser quality of holes at other of the world's greats is significant.  I think they suffer greatly.  Some of the very best courses like Shinnecock Hills, Merion East, Pine Valley, Sand Hills and NGLA don't have any mediocre holes and are therefore a tier above Pebble Beach.

Now I don't know what features, if restored, would elevate it beyond its current regard.  Naturally, I stand by my hole by hole comments and the changes I proposed.  However, these are improvements and not restorations (I think).  What restorations are you and/or Adam referring to?  The artificial dunes?

How do the green sizes compare today to years earlier? 

[J_ Crisham]

To score well at Pebble you have to be a good sand player because the greens are tiny and you will at some point be faced with some delicate bunker shots. The greens are fair in my opinion but given the traffic probably all you can expect. The 4th is actually one of my favorite short par fours.

[Tom Birkert]

The greens are tiny, the stretch of 6-10 is spectacular, 17 was a disappointment and personally I would take Cypress Point Club over Pebble Beach all day long. I prefered the inland holes, the holes on the ocean, the bunkering and the green complexes.

[Mark_Fine]

Pebble Beach will always be a course that is debated - what if there were no views, what if it "weren't Pebble Beach",...the list goes on and on.  Well the views are there and it IS Pebble Beach and the aura of such courses is one of the intangibles that makes many of the playing fields of this game so special.  It will likely always remain in the top 10 in the world.  In fact, it might be one of the best examples of where the whole is far greater than the sum of the individual parts.   It just works out that way and the more you play it the more you appreciate it.  The first hole might be a good example.  Ugh, I don't think so.  It that one is ugh, what is #1 at The Old Course with a 100 yard wide open fairway and a city drainage ditch running in front of the green acting as the prime hazard  If #1 at Pebble were any other hole on the course, most good players would take out a driver and hit a soft cut right up the throat leaving a flip shot into the green.  But you just can't do that being the first hole at Pebble Beach.  Call the "architecture" what you want, that hole and the whole course has you thinking right out of the gate. 

I've said this in past posts about Pebble Beach, if you are fortunate to play here a few times and can't get excited about your round, it is time to take up another sport 

[Adam Clayman]

Comparing the mediocre holes at Pebble Beach to the lesser quality of holes at other of the world's greats is significant.  I think they suffer greatly.  Some of the very best courses like Shinnecock Hills, Merion East, Pine Valley, Sand Hills and NGLA don't have any mediocre holes and are therefore a tier above Pebble Beach.

 

I couldn't help but notice the similarities between ME and PB, as wholes, in what makes each course great. Of course that's from a one time play at ME.
With 100's of times around PB, each hole has it's qualities that make it unique with regards to shot dictation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine, Tom Huckaby, et. al.,

It's been my limited observations that those critical of Pebble Beach, architecturally, have a non-architectural agenda fueled by access and/or cost.   And that they transfer one, which is unrelated, to the other.

[tlavin]

I do think that PB has a number of forgettable holes.  Despite the presence of these holes, the course still commands a position of great respect in my mind (top 25, anyway) because of the history and the oceanside holes.  It does seem to me that the course has become overyly manufactured over the years and that it has lost all of the rough hewn look that one sees in the historic photos scattered about the lodge.  The interesting question to me is what a gifted architect could/would do to salvage the mediocre holes.  Surely, most of these holes could be improved in a way that would retain the overal linksy feel of the place.  To invoke the Christian bracelet expression: "What would Doak do?"

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't played Pebble since 1978, played a few times starting in the late '50s.  What I remember most favorably was the routing, it has such a classic era feeling to it with the greens and tees so close together.  All that must be rather moot since the continuous concrete cart paths were installed. 

The walk from new #5 back to the #6 tee must be a real rhythym breaker!

[wsmorrison]

I couldn't help but notice the similarities between ME and PB, as wholes, in what makes each course great. Of course that's from a one time play at ME.  With 100's of times around PB, each hole has it's qualities that make it unique with regards to shot dictation.

Would you mind elaborating on this, Adam.  I have no idea what similarities you could be referring to.

[Adam Clayman]

Similar in the way the golf courses made me feel. The journey, the challenge, the ebb and flow of holes. Is the best way I'm able to describe it. 
I viewed them as equals. Not tiers apart.

If you watched the final round today, you couldn't help but see how Pebble has a certain mojo about it, even for some of the best players on tour.
 
   

[Joe Bentham]

Wayne,
Other than a few minor changes I would tend to agree with your numbers. There's a couple holes I'd give more points to (10, 11) but also a couple I might give less (3, 16 would be 7/10 for example). The reason I responded to Tom Doak's post as I did is the difference between giving something a 5/10 and calling it "average" with even a sentence explanation is different than giving it an "ugh" or "yuck" which makes it sound like a 2/10 and not fit for the par three course down the street. Even #1 and #15 deserves a 3-4.

I find it interesting how on other courses people say how some of the great courses are greater than the sum of their parts etc then change their tune and do hole-by-hole descriptions at Pebble Beach. Not picking on anyone specifically, but Pebble partially because of being well-known gets picked apart on the hole level more than any course on here.

Andy--
Any course that is truly great shines under such examination, if Pebble Doesn't then its because it isn't as good as those that do...

[SL_Solow]

I've played it several times.  It is difficult to argue with the position that some of the holes are "weak".  some of the weakness may be overemphasized because of the immediate contrast with the many world class holes.  I am struck by the thought that the course illustrates the old maxim that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  We seem to look for a sucession of so called signature holes crescendoing upward to a final magnificent finish.  Not a realistic model.  Moreover courses that ebb and flow can make the truly great holes seem even better.  Its one of my favorite places.  The small greens with significant contour are very different from what we usually play.

[Tom Huckaby]

Wayne:

If one is comparing and contrasting and splitting hairs among the world's great golf courses, then yes, my Santa Teresa comment is irrelevant.

But Tom Doak called several holes "ugh" and "yuk."  And that was what my comment was speaking to.

As for the rest, Adam and Patrick have things well under control. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayno,

I was also puzzled by the PB - ME analogy/comparison.

ME has always seemed like three courses in one in terms of feel.
1-6, 7-12, 13-18.

George Haines used to describe it as a great meal with three courses.

[Ian Andrew]

Food for thought....

Pine Valley has 3 world class par threes and a damned good one
Cypress Point has at two stunners with two real good ones to back that up
National has three great ones

It goes on and on through the greztest courses until you look at Pebble.....

Pebble Beach has one great three - and the others don't stack up well when you talk of other great courses.

The great holes are special - no question - but this course is less consistantly in terms of quality than any other top 10 course in the World.