Pebble Beach?

[Kalen Braley]

There has been a fair bit of discussion on why number 1 is below average or worse, so I would like to make a case for why its at least above average.

1)  As Huck schooled me well, first off is location.  You can't seperate the hole from the surroundings.  You are at PB, you can hear the surf pounding the sea wall at 18.  The magnificent Lodge behind you, pro shop on your left...and thats just the beginning.  No doubt you have the 1st tee jitters, especially knowing what awaits you in the next 4-5 hours....Ok 6 hours.  

2)  Opening hole is wide enough to accomadate the driver, but you must put on your mental thinking cap and be sure you don't run it thru the outside corner of the dogleg.  Additionally while the hole seems to encourage a fade off the tee, a draw just might be the better play because the fairway slopes from left to right and you don't want to end up in the right rough and completely cut off from going at the green in 2.  So you either play safe with a 3 wood to find the short stuff, or perhaps challenge the narrow section with a driver to have a short iron approach.  Right away there are many options to think about before you even take your first swing, including a little risk/reward component.  

Realistically though you are nervous and just hoping not to slice it into the lodges and break someones window.  

3)  Assuming you hit the fairway, now you have the same dilemma.  The approach seems to favor a left to right play, but the green insists otherwise as it slopes left to right.  Then you must factor in the uphill on the 2nd shot and the wind. You definitly can't miss left on the high side, with a 5 likely being best case scenario.  Miss right and a tough up and down awaits from the deep bunkers. Missing short is probably the best play and due to most amateurs not taking enough club is likely where they will end up.

4)  Then once you are on the green, the real adventure starts.  With a green sloping from left to right, combined with a little back to front...there is no such thing as a tap in unless your less than a foot away.  End up on the high side with your approach and you are praying not to 3 putt. Get below the hole and avoid leaving it too short for the 2nd putt. Throw in opening hole jitters and this task becomes challenging.

5)  As you leave the green, the course opens up before you and the anticipation only heightens.

A below average hole?  I think not.  Compare this to your average crap muni where you hit to the middle of the flat fairway, aim at the pin on a flat green with a simple 2 putt.

And to boot there are no waves crashing in the distance or the sounds of seals barking.  

[Bryan Izatt]

If you're comparing first holes, would not a comparison to Bandon Dunes, not PD, be more appropriate.  They are both dogleg rights and uphill to the green.  PB loses it in my mind because it requires a lay-up with your first shot of the day and the buildings on either side are absolutely clausterphobic.  On the first tee, absent of anticipating the rest of the course, you could be on the tee at many, many housing development courses.  The only thing that saves it is the aura that it's PB.  The first at BD seems like a better hole to me. 

Pat,

Re the 2nd, the back edge of the back tee is about 65 yards back from the centre of the 1st green.  From way back there the hole is 493 yards (427 from the tee next to the 1st green).  In either case a marginal length for a par 5, even in persimmon and balata days, if you're playing from the right tees.  The carry over the "crossing" bunker is around 200 yards.  The last bunker on the right is 280 yards to carry although you'd come pretty close to nipping the buildings by the tee to take a line down the right hand bunkers.   The fairway is a pretty generous 40 yards wide.  There's no strategic advantage to being to the left or right side of the fairway.  To carry the barranca is only 450 to the beginning of the fairway in front of the green.  The tiny green, as do all the greens at PB, provides the challenge in the hole.

[Jerry Kluger]

I haven't read this whole thread but I want to ask about the greenside tree at #18 - wasn't it replaced a couple of years back?  If that's the case, why is it accepted by the fans of PB?  It seems to me that every other course which planted trees has been bashed by most GCAers but not PB.  In fact, most of the time when a tree is left in play when a course is built most question why that was done.  Clearly, it is an obstacle that comes into play so why is it okay?

[Tom Huckaby]

Kalen, well done.  Now respond to Bryan, yet another naysayer.  All I can say is a layup is surely not REQUIRED off that tee, not for me anyway.. it's damn tempting to hit a driver with a cut and try to get a wedge into that green.

Re #2, Bryan must be a very big hitter.  I've never felt comfortable getting over that barranca in two shots and I never will.  I also do see a definite advantage in coming in from the left side, now that the huge tree that used to be in front of the green on the left is gone... coming from the left one can run the ball in - important to me from 230 or more out, as a normal drive would leave me.  But there's OB left, so one can't get too crazy... then again the bunkers on the right - or worse, the road - is no bargain either.  

There's a lot going on on that golf hole for me.  But if one can routinely make 280 yard carries, I suppose it might be blah.  But what hole wouldn't?  I guess only 8 would make you think.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

I haven't read this whole thread but I want to ask about the greenside tree at #18 - wasn't it replaced a couple of years back?  If that's the case, why is it accepted by the fans of PB?  It seems to me that every other course which planted trees has been bashed by most GCAers but not PB.  In fact, most of the time when a tree is left in play when a course is built most question why that was done.  Clearly, it is an obstacle that comes into play so why is it okay?

It was replaced.  Most here do hate it, but most here hate all trees.  Rest assured it received suitable bashing when discussed.

I kinda like it as it complicates the approach... but more importantly, it's just part of the historical look and feel of the hole; that is, it's always been there, the hole would be very weird without it.

TH

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Just remember "best" is a relative term.  I would ask you or Tom Doak or anyone here to argue what more you would like to see from #1 at Pebble than what I have described?  Maybe they need to plant a big hedge just off the tee, run a road behind it, and make the landing area blind like at that other track nearby.  I can't remember it's name but I think Tom and others give it a 10!   
Mark

[Jerry Kluger]

TH: You seem to be a bit selective in your critiques as you are allowing something to be done at PB which you would find unacceptable at any other venue.

[Jim Nugent]

Pebbles length is very interesting though.  Based on yardage alone, I would agree it seems improbable they could ever host a PGA tour event there, much less a major.  But its defended so well at the greens.  In looking at yesterdays final round scores at Pebble, only 5 players shot in the 60s...so I think its still very viable as a championship course.

There may be another factor that makes Pebble longer.  The ball this week did not go very far.  I don't have the stats in front of me, but IIRC Lowery averaged around 267 off the tee.   Pretty sure the guys were hitting it much shorter than they normally average.   

Is that often/usually true at those courses?  Is it seasonal?  If it's true, how much longer does it make the courses play? 

[Kalen Braley]

Jerry,

I think  the point in the case of 18 is that additional trees were not added.  It was just replaced when the original tree died.  While I'm not a big fan of trees myself, in this case I think it was the right move because thier efforts were in the spirit of restoration and returning the hole to as it was originally, not trying to modify it to make it something different.

The tree really does force you to think about the layup becuse if you go too far right, your are blocked off.  So it encourages you to flirt more with the hazard on the left to make sure you have a clear approach with your third.

Kalen

[Kalen Braley]

Pebbles length is very interesting though.  Based on yardage alone, I would agree it seems improbable they could ever host a PGA tour event there, much less a major.  But its defended so well at the greens.  In looking at yesterdays final round scores at Pebble, only 5 players shot in the 60s...so I think its still very viable as a championship course.

There may be another factor that makes Pebble longer.  The ball this week did not go very far.  I don't have the stats in front of me, but IIRC Lowery averaged around 267 off the tee.   Pretty sure the guys were hitting it much shorter than they normally average.   

Is that often/usually true at those courses?  Is it seasonal?  If it's true, how much longer does it make the courses play? 

Jim,

The Monterey area is not only at sea level but also has air with a higher than average water content.  So driving is not only shorter due to elevation, but also due to the thick coastal heavy air in the area.  Its likely another reason why PB can hold up just fine to the pros at 6800 yards.

Specific holes which force or strongly enourage players to lay back.

1 - tight neck on dogleg.
3 - Severe dogleg left
8 - Chasm to lay back
14-  Severe dogleg off tee.  Narrow opening to green, and one of the smallest effective green areas on the course
15-  Fairway bunkers in landing area.
18-  Decision to be made to go past the trees or not.

[Matt_Ward]

Couple of quick comments on PB ...

1). I've played it about a dozen times over the course of my lifetime and I really do enjoy the course. Would I include it among my personal top ten? No. Why? The inbalance between great and inferior holes is too great in my book.

2). On the plus side ... the putting surfaces are rarely discussed. Many of them are quite small and angled to one side or the other. When the wind blows hard they are among the most demanding approach shots one can play. Few people realize what type of G-A-L-E blew during the final round of the '92 event.

3). Nicklaus did a superb job with the par-3 5th -- I just wish the USGA would allow the hole to be played as he designed.

4). The stretch of golf from #6 through #10 is all that proponents say it is. When you get weather like the boys had this past weekend there's few places that can match the beauty and strategic implications of the holes in question.

5). I only wish the pro-am event would use the extreme back tee at #17 for one of the rounds. I can recall watching the tube when Nicklaus hit that glorious 1-iron back in the 4th round of the '72 US Open.

6). When you play Pebble can determine greatly the opinion you have of the course. I've played in all different seasons -- winter, spring, summer and fall. Played when slow and wet - the course provides one entirely different feel / look. Played when hard and fast and all bets are off. Unfortunately, it's rarely kep that firm and fast. A pity.

p.s. For what it's worth -- I like the 1st hole because of its location but in terms of overall strategic merit it's really nothing more than filler for me.

[Tom Huckaby]

TH: You seem to be a bit selective in your critiques as you are allowing something to be done at PB which you would find unacceptable at any other venue.

I sure don't think so.  I doubt I've ever critiqued replacing important trees at any course, as where the hell else has that taken place?  If I did, it either worked for the course specifically, or I was temporarily insane.  But a better bet is you're thinking of someone else.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

  If we'd built any of those at Pacific Dunes I'd never hear the end of it.

Tom Doak likely FORGOT more about golf course architecture in the last hour than I've learned in the past 40 years, and when asked who I think the best architect working today is, his name is always on a very short list. I am a big fan of his work.  

That said, the quote above is one of the most outragious comments I've read on this site in the past five years in my opinion and I'm appalled it gets a free pass.

Just offhand, I'd be hard pressed to argue that no. 1 at PD is significantly better than no. 1 at PB.  Or that no. 15 at PD is in the same league with no. 2 at PB.  Heck, I even like no. 12 at PB (still unsure why this hold gets widely panned) better than no. 17 at PD and I like  no. 11 at PB more than the 16th at PD.  

I must be a total idiot and will now curl up and cower under my desk while sucking my thumb.  Me and Roberto - two stupids.  Gee, five years of GCA.com down the drain.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

Are the right hand fairway bunkers on no. 3 new? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:  I tried my best to make him account for that statement.  If you read along, you'll see that later he sort of does.

And yes, those bunkers on #3 are new.  I haven't played the hole with those on them yet, but from looking at them, I think they are a net negative.  That hole was fantastic without them, I thought.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Those bunkers on three are terrible.  I've driven the ball over there and from the rough the approach is very precise the greenside bunkers extremely deep.  Accordingly, they serve as nothing more than a easy aiming points on a hole where the drive is of paramount importance. 

Ditto those on 15.  Also, the tree and fairway bunkering on 18 once worked well in tandem before but not now. 

I thought PB was a 10 when I played there seven or eight years ago.  I'm not to sure now with these changes.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:

It does seem that none of the recent changes are positives.  I just can't tell for sure from the road, the only places I've seen 3 and 15, or on TV, the only place I've seen the trees/bunker on 18.  I think you're likely right, but I want to play the course before I say for sure.  And Lord only knows when that will happen.

So for me it remains a 10.

 

[Joe Bentham]

Dosen't the pressure to hit a small green get repetitive?  I don't think there is enough variety at PB in the greens and green surrounds.  Missing a green at PB almost always means a high lofted wedge shot.  variety is important in green complexes IMO, and I don't see the small, macro-undulating greens as varied or all that interesting.

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
How many times have you played the golf course?

Matt Ward,
A guy with your length could knock it right up there in front of that first green, chip up and make an easy birdie to start your day.  It is not like there is no room to go for it.    What clubs have you hit off the first tee?  How close do you dare come to the corner on your layups?  Better angle and straighter shot the farther you get up there.
Mark

[Joe Bentham]

Mark--
played it once, looped it 11 times.  5 of the loops where double bags.  How bout yourself?

[Mark_Fine]

Two or three times a year for the past 10 years.

[David Botimer]

PB vs. PD?  IF you could take away the ocean views on both you'd be left with a pretty mundane PB and a very good PD.  Play them like they lay and PB's ocean holes are some of the best in the world, but the inland holes get REALLY boring fast and the houses and auto traffic circling more than a minor annoyance.  PD like it lies?  What houses?  What traffic?  Best public golf experience in the country and second only to Cypress Point for oceanside golf.

[Tom Huckaby]

David:

To each his own, for sure.  I for one look quizzically at assessments that remove views and the like, as I sure don't play with my eyes closed...  and I read everything you wrote and say this:  as wonderful as PD is - and it is wonderful, I've sold my marital soul to go there three times - it's not Pebble Beach, and it never will be.  Well, not until they hold 4-5 US Opens there anyway.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

PB vs. PD?  IF you could take away the ocean views on both you'd be left with a pretty mundane PB and a very good PD.  Play them like they lay and PB's ocean holes are some of the best in the world, but the inland holes get REALLY boring fast and the houses and auto traffic circling more than a minor annoyance.  PD like it lies?  What houses?  What traffic?  Best public golf experience in the country and second only to Cypress Point for oceanside golf.

By "oceanside golf" do you mean a view of the ocean or alongside the ocean?

Bob

[Joe Bentham]

TomH--
I think you miss the point though.  No one is saying that PB isn't a special place to play golf.  Of course the veiws and the history are part of the package and can't easily be removed from the equation.  But this is a discussion group dedicated to the architectural aspect of golf.  And that is where some of the holes at PB fall short IMO and the opinion of others.  Just imagine how good of a golf course could've been built there and how different it would be from the one that's there.  I don't think you can say that about ANY of the other courses that Pebble likes to keep company with...