[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Why is Waterville ranked 5th in Ireland by Golf Digest's Country rankings?  Two of my friends and I played there this past Wed.  Then we palyed County Louth Thurs.  We all felt that Co. Louth was more interesting etc.  I know that the rankings are rankings and really only mean so much but so many people over the years have told me to visit Waterville.  We played 36 at Ballybunion finishing with the Cashen and we felt there were some better holes than at Waterville.  I dont know maybe it was the financial molestation we received when we palyed at Waterville.  Just curious to see what everybody thinks of the course.

[SPDB]

Don't shoot the messenger, but I'm hearing that they have contacted Fazio to do work to this course. I'm not entirely sure what it will entail.

[Ran Morrissett]

RC,

Perhaps more than other courses, Waterville appears to generate two schools of thought, and I'll offer my perspective as the other one.

It is far and away Hackett's finest design yet because of its uncompromising challenge, it appeals more to the better player. Some of the perched locations of the back markers provide the course high octane excitement but you have to know where they are and playing a mixed set of markers is best.

Full of wonderful golf holes 2, 3 (!), 4, 5, 10, 11(!), 12, 14 (!), 17 (!), and 18 (!), I find it far more inspiring than Baltray. It has great long par fours, 3 of its 4 par threes are super, and it possesses Ireland's finest set of par fives. All that it's missing is a cute little two shotter.

In fact, thanks to the fact that its best holes are nicely spread throughout the course, I like it better than Turnberry as a place for a game.  How it isn't in GOLF Magazine's world top 100 is beyond me  - it possess tremendous beauty, raw challenge, and great holes.

I doubt I'll ever go to Ireland without seeking it out.

Cheers,

[Paul Perrella]

     Although I am clearly not as big a fan of #2 at Waterville as Ran is I would also agree with the rest of his comments. #2 with a back pin position can cause some tingles if you are trying to get close but other than that I fine this hole fairly boring. The finishing 9 at Waterville may be the best back in Ireland. Pair the back at Waterville with the front at Portstewart and you may have the best course in the country.
   This course not being in anyones top 100 may indicate the value of the rankings.

[D. Kilfara]

Paul - that's quite a ringing endorsement of Portstewart, isn't it? I'm almost inclined to agree with you, too...

Cheers,
Darren

[Paul Daley]

I remain a huge fan of Waterville, inspite of it having the two blandest holes in Ireland: the 1st and 2nd.

IMHO Waterville is under-rated because it incorporates a couple of definite links no-no's: non-indigenous plantings, including palm trees. This atificiality does upset panelists like you wouldn't believe. Sadly, it has suffered "over-watering" in the last 15 years and began to lose its initial keen links feel. Ephemeral grasses started to predominate; white daisies galore!

It does have among the best 3s in Ireland - maybe the best, and is a great test of driving.

Yes, a super place to golf, and the people here are especially friendly, even by Ireland's high standards!

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Looking at the golf course not just from the distant back tees and from the overall design details.  The green complexes and bunkering were short of inspiring.  I would agree that the views are nice with the mountians wrapping around the course and the view of water.  Starting out on the course I felt ok until hole #2.

The plantings behind the green and boringness of the complex was a disappointment.  Hole #3 plays directly west and yes it is 417 with water on the right and a rock wall holding the green up on the right side at the water.  Uggh!  I mean I can see this type of design in the US on many other courses.

As far as playing the golf course from the back tees and thinking its the best thing....makes me wonder if its just all about the tee shot.  Yes I agree with Paul about the BAck nine being the best.  Concerning the details on GCA's course reviews...I would agree the Par 3's are nice.

But if I just look at it concerned for the best player, then I missed the greatness of the course since I am not in the category of the great players.  I was evaluating the course for the overall design details...ie: greens, bunkers, and contours.  For instance the leftside bunkers on 11 were goofy.  They sat several feet above the fairway and the green was distanced from them making uterly useless and it seemed like they were placed to meet a bunker qouta.

I also think the plantings along 2,3,16,17,18 take away from the golf holes being more dramatic.  I liked 4,5,9,11,12,15,16,17...and yes the back tee on 18 makes the golf hole.  I can only offer my less than good player opinion, but I feel there is definitely an argument why the course is not in the top 100...oh wait a minute its in the 100 club....the above 120 euro club.

I just felt that it missed the design details that Co. Louth possessed.  Sure they are too different layouts in length etc.  But some of the design details of bunkering and greens complexes were interesting.  Sure the Par 5's were short but the holes sat on the land and the greens rolled great with interesting greens complexes.  I enjoyed the saddles in the fairways and the placement of bunkers...maybe cause I was in alot of them.

Sure 16, 17, 18 were a bit less characteristic of the other holes.  But from what my friend told me the routing was changed to accomodate the clubhouse.  I liked #3 semi-blind shot Par5 to the green with drops on the left and right since from what I read good players have a harder time judging right or left than long or short.

Green on #2(depression behind the green)plus the right hand bunker from the fwy 28yds from green was nice.

Holes 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, 14(great short hole with some very nice contours and green)

Looking at them both from a golfer that is not great.  I would play Baltray over Waterville.  Sure I did enjoy the drive from Sneem to Waterville but hey I guess you have to be able to drive long to enjoy Waterville?  I think to be good its got more to do with other things than just being a long course.  

[Ran Morrissett]

I am surprised no one else seems to like the 2nd - for what it's worth, Christy O'Connor Jr. selected it as one of his favorite 18 holes in Ireland.

Paul, do you recall the reason for the plantings behind the 2nd green? Isn't it to keep the River Inny from spraying water onto the green (and that particular plant can withstand such water)? Perhaps Tom Doak can comment as he is/was doing some consulting work there.

Henry Cotton remarked of Waterville 'I have never seen a more consistent succession of really strong and beautiful golf holes than here' and that statement still rings true, despite the onslaught of technology.

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

I am sure the plants are used for protection.  I just hope that maybe another design feature can be implemented to offer that protection in the near future by Doak etc.

As for my opinion, its not personal toward everybody's expressed opinions, I am just partial to other in Ireland after my visit I would not rank Waterville in the top 5.  But Paul is right the Back nine is nice and I beleive it was added later than the other nine.  The Stroke saver notes stated that the old 9 holes occupied the eastern flat part of the site and then the other 9 was added and the course rerouted.

As far as #2, I will have to review my photos, although the green and palm plants really stick in my mind on that hole with the green tilting from the back to front with a slope off to the right front and left.  Its 469 yds. off the tips and 425 off the whites.  Its stout but it just didnt jump out to me as a favourite.  You would think of all the golf seen by O'Connor that he would have plenty of holes to outdo #2.

Although, it seems to be the typical commercial comment for a high priced course.

[Rick]

Well, RC, I tend to agree with you. I have Waterville rated #12 on my personal Ireland course list and Co. Louth #7.

The thing with these "lists" is that they're purely subjective anyway and dozens of things besides architecture influence us when we start forming a heirarchy.

I've sorta played Waterville twice. Once, the wind was gale force and the rain (sheets of it) soon followed. We were obliged to walk in after #4 dead into the gale and for the first time in my life, I was 100% soaked. The second time we played the course, we were able to finish the game but conditions were not that much more benign. That is, it was still mighty breezy but we were only rained on three or four times, none of which were skin drenching propositions.

To be honest, however, I'm the sort who tends to focus in on the playing of the game to get the best score possible. With my skills, that often commands my total attention. As a result, I admit that I often don't digest the subtleties of design as I play along. Only the truly spectacular catches my attention (12 - 17 at Tralee for example). I didn't find that to be the case at Waterville.

However, in review of my card, I did note an appreciation of holes 2 through 4 and 14 through 16. My general, overall inpression at the time was that it didn't strike me as being that memorable a course in contrast to others that I was playing on those trips.

[Friedrich]

The truth is, Waterville is grossly overrated. The fairways are flat, the greens are flat.  I defy anyone to name one interesting green,or fairway. And that par-three with a pond hollowed to create the phony mounding behind it. The course is lucky to be in south west Ireland. Just like Tralee, it is the setting is magnificent, and since the majority of visitors never venture elsewhere in the country, they don't know what great links golf is.

I can name a dozen courses in Ireland ranked "below it" which blow it away.
Malahide...Baltray....Rosses Point...St. Patricks (both)...Rosapenna (both)...Castlerock...Enniscrone...etc.

[Paul Richards]

Here's my list of Irish golf courses in order:

Royal County Down
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Portrush
Portmarnock
Lahinch
Old Head
Tralee
European Club
Waterville
Druids Glen
K-Club - Kildare Manor
County Louth - Baltray
County Sligo - Rosses Point
Killarney - Killeen
Castlerock
Links - Portmarnock
Ballybunion - New


Just one man's humble opinion, though!

[Paul Richards]

RC:

As you can see, I ranked Waterville only 9th in Ireland of the
courses I have played there.

[Slag_Bandoon]

Ran quotes:

"It is far and away Hackett's finest design ..."

Eddie Hackett proclaims that Carne, in Belmullet, was the course he thought would be his finest legacy.  
It's really too bad it doesn't get the exposure of the Ring courses...  or any other region in Ireland.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I am glad to see someone have the courage to say what many know, WATERVILLE is just an ok course. The back niine at least runs in the dunes. I found it to be a 12 to 15th best in Ireland amoung the courses i have played and really only ahead of the Europeon Club amoung the highly visiable courses.

[Richard_Goodale]

OK, I'll pile on too.

The drive to Waterville from Killarney through Kenmare and the drive out of it around the Ring of Kerry are the best things about the course.

My guess is that the main reason it is rated so highly is the American connection and all the associated PR and pampering that goes along with it.  As JB says, it's OK, but not much more.

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

I don't want to "pile on", but essentially I agree with you.  I enjoy the ride to Waterville and several restaurants along the way.  But, the charm of the golf course does not match the tranquility of the overall setting.

I once sat in the bar at Dooks and argued the merits of Dooks vs Waterville.  My drinking partner was a member at both Waterville and Dooks and someone who grew up in Waterville.  Trying to convince her that Dooks was a much more enjoyable golf course to play than Waterville wasn't easy.  Indeed, she was shocked I would say such a thing.

"Dooks", she told me, "is just a fun little place.  Waterville is a real golf course".

"No", I insisted, "Waterville is okay, but Dooks is a treasure....no contest when it comes to charm".

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

Yes, if you do choose to go to Watertorchure(SP)...then drive from Sneem thru the Killarney National Park...awesome  I highly recommend it!  I appreciate the feeelings from others.....I have been told from early on to visit the course and I can only say why?

The question is do we need to critique for distance or for design....sure things become tough when long....but of all the designs I have visited I prefer design than the distance.  What do ya think?  I mean over here things should be about greens(punch bowls etc) than about length.  Too many players dont make it on tourt becuase of the putter.

[Richard_Goodale]

RC

Great to see that pub life in Edinburgh hasn't changed in the past 2 years.  And it's at least 2 hours until closing time!  Go for it, whatever "it" is these days..............!!

[Robert "Cliff" Stanfield]

q

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Rich, Well said! The pub life is indeed alive and well. lol lol I too find the coastal drive as well as the the whole of Kerry to be a delight. I hope one day there is a course equal to the scenery and culture of this most wonderful spot on earth.

[Tim_Weiman]

John Bernhardt:

There has been some limit discussion about building s second course in Waterville.  I haven't seen the property, but recall being told it was closer to "okay" than something special.

[mps]

Sorry - just found this thread & had to revive it because I'm in the severely OVERRATED camp.

How CAN it be 5th?  The top four are set - I don't really care what order you place them but County Down, Portrush, Ballybunion-Old & Portmarnock are far and away the best courses in Ireland.  Then personal preference may take over but if you've got Waterville 5th, you think it's better than Lahinch, European Club, Ballyliffin Glashedy, County Louth, Portstewart, Carne, County Sligo and Old Head.  I'd rather play ANY of these courses than Waterville.  Waterville is a good course but it's relatively flat and not very exciting.  As a matter of fact, its not even that scenic - remember you could also be playing Dooks, Tralee or BB Cashen.

I've played 20 Irish links courses & I'd slot Waterville in at #14 - it's unlikely to go up in my estimation because I'm unlikely to waste any more precious Irish golfing time south of Ballybunion.

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