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David Stamm

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Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« on: February 05, 2008, 10:54:16 AM »
Okay guys, this one is even tougher than the last. The photo is from 1921. Clues to follow.....

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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2008, 11:14:14 AM »
On that photo notice that once again all the bunkers are well INSIDE the fairway lines which appear really wide.

Was this a lot of the revolutionary ideas in architecture for some of those guys out there then? I can't say I've seen courses from that era on this side with architectural features arranged like that.

The next question is even with those fairways that wide with all those bunker features sprinkled in their midst what did they have in mind beyond the fairway lines?

I just can't help thinking that Behr did say he didn't believe in "rough" and that Mackenzie felt the same way. And as much as I've read of Max Behr I cannot remember him every speaking about planting trees or ever even mentioning trees in golf or architecture.
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Matthew Hunt

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2008, 04:27:28 PM »
James Braid comes to mind.
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David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2008, 07:15:24 PM »
Quote from: Matthew Hunt on February 05, 2008, 04:27:28 PM
James Braid comes to mind.

The arch hails from the same part of the world as Braid, but the course does not.


A former U.S. Open champion was club professional in it's early years and it served as the home club for another former U.S. Open champ for many years.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Garland Bayley

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2008, 07:16:22 PM »
Israel?
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2008, 07:52:19 PM »
It must've been refresing back then to occasionally find that the preferred line of play was OUTSIDE of the bunker line, even WAY outside the bunker line...even if by that choice you were openly playing for a bogie.

Peter      

I can't guess the architect, David.
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John Kirk

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 08:38:37 PM »
My guess is Olympic - Ocean course.

Fine...I'll take Potpourri for $900, Alex.
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David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 08:55:16 PM »
Quote from: John Kirk on February 05, 2008, 08:38:37 PM
My guess is Olympic - Ocean course.

Fine...I'll take Potpourri for $900, Alex.

John, you are correct in regards to the arch. Good eye! Would you like to try Double Jeoprady? ;)
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 09:04:32 PM »
To be fair, the course that this arch did has been erroneously attributed to another arch for years.


Another hint. This course has played host to a U.S. Women's Open.......
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tim Gavrich

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 09:11:47 PM »
Not Newport CC, is it?  It kinda looks like #12 (or #3, depending on the order of the nines), right before the two consecutive par 3s.
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Jeff Doerr

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 09:12:38 PM »
Chula Vista?
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Allan Long

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 09:21:21 PM »
I think Jeff has the right city. Was the winner one of the sports most prolific winners who had a home-town advantage?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 09:22:32 PM by Allan Long »
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David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2008, 09:21:35 PM »
Quote from: Jeff Doerr on February 05, 2008, 09:12:38 PM
Chula Vista?


Right town, Jeff. And the name?
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jeff Doerr

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2008, 09:25:39 PM »
Allan's got it.
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David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2008, 09:27:24 PM »
Quote from: Allan Long on February 05, 2008, 09:21:21 PM
I think Jeff has the right city. Was the winner one of the sports most prolific winners who had a home-town advantage?


Yes she was, Allan, and quite possibly possesed the best swing of all time, man or woman.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Allan Long

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2008, 09:31:17 PM »
Was Bell the correct arch, or was he the one wrongly credited?
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I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

Tom Jefferson

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2008, 09:34:01 PM »
Another great photo hunt, David.

Thanx.

And one of the very best features of this outstanding course
is shown clearly in the photo.........
.......the pitching, rolling character of the ground/fairway contour.

Take a look at the fairway in the foreground, and extend your eye into the 'rough' to the left....same natural contours.

Beautiful stuff.

And a little like the tremendous ground contours showing up
at Old Mac.

More weather here at Bandon...extending a substantially wet and cold winter....still fast and firm!

Tom
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David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2008, 09:34:16 PM »
I guess it's not a secret anymore to Jeff and Allan. The photo is of the 18th at San Diego CC, one time employer of Ralph  Guldahl and long time home to Billy Casper as well as the 1964 U.S. Women's Open winner Mickey Wright. For years SDCC was attributed to Billy Bell, which as you can see from the bunkers, was not the case. The original arch was in fact Willie Watson. John Kirk's observation was very astute as the bunkers are virtually the same in style as at the original Ocean course at Olympic.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Allan Long

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2008, 09:36:22 PM »
Poor Willie. Wasn't he also the correct arch for Hacienda GC, that was for years attributed to Behr.
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I don't know how I would ever have been able to look into the past with any degree of pleasure or enjoy the present with any degree of contentment if it had not been for the extraordinary influence the game of golf has had upon my welfare.
--C.B. Macdonald

David Stamm

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2008, 09:41:57 PM »
Quote from: Allan Long on February 05, 2008, 09:36:22 PM
Poor Willie. Wasn't he also the correct arch for Hacienda GC, that was for years attributed to Behr.


Yes he was, Allan. It's too bad Tommy N isn't on the site anymore as he can give you detailed inside info on that discovery. Hacienda is a pretty neat place.
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"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bill_McBride

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2008, 10:06:19 PM »
Quote from: Tom Jefferson on February 05, 2008, 09:34:01 PM

And a little like the tremendous ground contours showing up
at Old Mac.


Tom, natural or shaped?  [I suppose I know the answer but just curious.  ;)]
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Scott Witter

Re: Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2008, 09:48:29 AM »
Peter:

I'm not sure how many, with the exception of Mr. Paul,  ;) picked up on your astute comment.  I too thought the same thing when I saw the picture....it doesn't really matter IMO, as long as choices, decisions and a strategic motive was involved with where one plays to give an advantage for their game, or to simply create more fun.  The FW width and placement of the bunkers appears to be very effective to do just this.
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John Kirk

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Re:Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2008, 10:09:13 AM »
Quote from: David Stamm on February 05, 2008, 09:34:16 PM
I guess it's not a secret anymore to Jeff and Allan. The photo is of the 18th at San Diego CC, one time employer of Ralph  Guldahl and long time home to Billy Casper as well as the 1964 U.S. Women's Open winner Mickey Wright. For years SDCC was attributed to Billy Bell, which as you can see from the bunkers, was not the case. The original arch was in fact Willie Watson. John Kirk's observation was very astute as the bunkers are virtually the same in style as at the original Ocean course at Olympic.

Thanks, David, but it was a wild assed guess, based on my belief that you would post a California photo, and it looked like it might be near the ocean.

Willie Watson also did Belevdere in northern Michigan, and Ralph Livingston has lots of info about Belvedere, including a fine 1930s era aerial photo, if Watson's other work is of interest to you.
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Jon Spaulding

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Re: Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2008, 01:01:29 PM »
I was going to guess, but Alex Trebeck already showed me the answer a few weeks ago. :D

I love the look of the photo.
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Pete Lavallee

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Re: Guess where and the arch, part 2.
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2008, 02:36:36 PM »
David,

Can you post aphoto of what's there today; surely a far cry from the original. As I recall it's now a triple tiered green. That does appear to be quite a lush fairway; I believe SDCC was the first course in San diego to have irrigation. What proof do you have that it is truely a Willie watson course?
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