David McLay Kidd

[John Shimp]

I did a GCA search and didn't get a lot of prior threads on DMK.  I personally have not played any of his courses but was intrigued by his 2 Scottish projects (Castle Course in St Andrews and Machrihanish Dunes) outlined in T&L Golf or Links recently.  How comparitively is his work thought of versus the best of the new breed like C&C, Doak, Hanse, and Others?  Similarities and differences?  

[J Sadowsky]

I feel like there has been discussion about his work at Nanea (private course in Hawaii) in the past.  His website has photos of his work:

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/

He's somewhere between minimalist and traditional.  But to clarify, I think he often does one or the other, with Bandon and  Powerscourt looking more traditional scottish links and parkland (respectively), and Nanea and Queenwood looking far more modern-minimalist.   Here's his philosophy, though its somewhat cliche:

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/philosophy.aspx

And his methodology, which is actually in depth and fairly interesting:

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/methodology.aspx

Besides Nanea and Bandon, he's done Fancourt, Queenwood, Powerscort, Stonebrae, and is building Thetherow (Oregon), Taghazout (Morocco), and the Castle Course.

He's also designing two other courses in Mexico and Portugal, and did remodels of Gleneagles, Ljunghusens, and Durban.

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/portfolio.aspx (with photos).

[Jason Topp]

Bandon Dunes v. Pacific Dunes v. Bandon trails provides an interesting comparison.  I'm not sure it is a fair comparison given it was Kidd's first course (I think) and much later in the careers of Doak and Coore.

The details at Bandon Dunes are not as intricate as on the other courses.  In other words, the greens seemed vanilla by comparison and the surrounds were less ornate. Whether that difference is good or bad depends on taste, and I do not know which I prefer.  On my trip I appreciated having reasonable putts and short game shots after getting beat up by the other courses for a few days.

The bunkering at Bandon Dunes is very different from the other courses - much cleaner in appearance with some relatively out of place sod wall bunkers thrown in.  I preferred them to the other courses from a playing perspective but preferred the other courses bunkers visually.

I'm not sure about the relative merits of the routing.  

[Scott Weersing]

I am unsure what you mean by Bandon Dunes having vanilla greens. Sure they don't have the wild rolls of a Doak green but I think Kidd created or found some wild greens at Bandon Dunes. I think No. 2 is amazing as you can play a variety of shots into the green. I also think No. 7 is great as it is perched up on the dune. No. 13 is a wild green and it is especially difficult if the pin is in the back.

What is the most vanilla green on the course? It could be No. 6 or No. 14.

[John Shimp]

The slow response to this topic tells me a lot.  Either people don't know Kidd well and therefore don't have input or Kidd is not thought to be in the league of Doak or C&C and wouldn't make the interview list for a new US project.  Am I going to far?  Jason Topp gets into why he may not be at that level a bit.  Others?

[Tim Pitner]

John,

I'm guessing few people have played more than one Kidd course.  Sure, Bandon Dunes is well-known, but Nanea is ultra-private as is Queenwood, Powerscourt is an inland course in Ireland so it doesn't attract much attention and some of his other projects--the Castle course, Machrihanish and the course in Bend--haven't opened yet.  Information is pretty scarce.  

[Robert Thompson]

I think you'll find -- if you check out DMK's website or read Scott Gummer's new book on the 7th at St. Andrews -- that McLay Kidd is very busy, with projects in San Fran, Oregon, Morocco and others. I recall reading his design fee is now more than $1M per design.

Perhaps most here haven't seen his work aside from Bandon, but I bet that changes with Machrihanish and the Castle Course. I think those two will have a large impact on his reputation.

Interestingly, he's also building a course in British Columbia and I have a call with him tomorrow.

[Michael Dugger]

He ranks right up there with the best guys working today, IMHO.

DMK "gets it."

[Bob Jenkins]

Robert,

Can you disclose where in British Columbia and for whom David McLay Kidd is working?

Thanks

[Jim Johnson]

Kidd's website has this about the site in B.C.

http://www.dmkgolfdesign.com/portfolio-fernie.aspx



JJ

[Bob Jenkins]

Interesting!

No real estate, etc. and tucked away in Fernie which has skiing and is almost in Alberta. As a destination course, it would be a limited season, quite remote (easier for Albertans, Idahoians? and Montana types to access than those from the coast) and presumably very private because it presumably would have trouble making money in that location.

I am assuming there is more Alberta oil money behind this.

Nice to have him working in this part of the world!

[Robert Thompson]

I'm actually having a chat with David tomorrow for a story, so I'll ask him about this. Fernie isn't that far from Calgary and with the oil money flowing through that city, I could see how this course would have appeal for those looking to take a short trip.

Don't know the quality of the course -- but we'll see. There's a real boom in BC now. Courses from Carrick, McBroom, Kyle Phillips, Gil Hanse, and one from Mike Weir and some unnamed designer in the near future.

The Hanse course in Comox was rerouted after some stability issues, which means there will be a good part of the course on the ocean. He's doing it with Shackelford, which should be interesting. The developer is a guy from Seattle. Gil said the owner called after the initial routing was done and said they needed to make changes. Gil thought the worst. Then it turns out the oceanside area couldn't be used for houses -- so he gets it for golf. Could be quite something.

As for DMK, I mentioned I just finished reading Scott Gummer's book. Kidd does get it -- he's a smart businessman and a designer of the like that would be appreciated by most of the GCA crowd. He likes to push limits, even if he is uncertain about how it'll be received. He doesn't believe in "fair" golf.

Gummer's book, incidently, is excellent.

[Ash Towe]

Has anybody played the Powerscourt club in Ireland?
Is it worth playing over the links courses one normally plays on a trip to Ireland?
Thanks in advance.

[SB]

My brother in law just joined Stonebrae near San Francisco and LOVES it.  Just opened, supposed to be very hard.  I think there was a thread here with a lot of pictures and good reviews. 

[Tom Huckaby]

My brother in law just joined Stonebrae near San Francisco and LOVES it.  Just opened, supposed to be very hard.  I think there was a thread here with a lot of pictures and good reviews. 

There was indeed discussion of Stonebrae when it first opened toward the end of last summer.  I was on the team that did NCGA rating for it.  It is a very hard course, indeed.... the ratings came out pretty much as I expected, although if any thing I am surprised the slope isn't even higher:

Black 72 75 135 7133
Silver 72 71.4 129 6493
Orange 72 69.3 122 6010

In any case, the only real negative about the course is that it would be an exceedingly difficult walk.  Not much Kidd could have done about that given the very hilly site, but this is indeed a "cartball" course.

TH

[Robert Thompson]

Just got off the phone with David.

Andrew, the site in Fernie is the former Norman site. Apparently issues with the routing led the owner to turf Norman and bring Kidd on. Interesting, because they did a bunch of press with Norman when it was announced -- even offered to fly me in to spend time with Greg on site.

[Bob Jenkins]

Robert,

Thanks.

I understand the Cliffs over Maple Bay on Vancouver Island, which is promoting a Norman course, is in trouble. If you look at the photos of the site on their website they are obviously "doctored" to make it look as though some of the course is finished or close to it. I have not been there but I have been told that other than some clearing, not much has been done.

Similar rumours re the Rise near Vernon and the Couple course.

[Dean Stokes]

I know a couple of the caddies who work at Queenwood. They said it is a great golf course. I also know a caddy in Scotland who has walked The Castle course and said when it finally opens is going to be a beauty.
Take a look at the photos on his website. I would say is work looks every bit as good as C/C or Doak.

[Michael Dugger]

cool new feature!!!

[Reef Wilson]

I was in SA and played the Fancourt Montagu course a few weeks ago and though it was a bit roughed up in spots from a recent storm, I loved the course. And I didn't know Kidd did the renovation (redesign and 2 completely new holes) until I read this thread. Fancourt's website doesn't mention who did the renovation which might say something in itself. While the course winds through some resort housing, it does so tastefully, has a very open feel to it and the course played firm and fast.

Enjoyed the Montagu much more than than the supposedly renowned Gary Player "Links" course which hosted the 2003 Presidents Cup. Looks like a links, but played super soft. A bit of a disappointment really.

[Jordan Caron]

Robert,

Thanks.

I understand the Cliffs over Maple Bay on Vancouver Island, which is promoting a Norman course, is in trouble. If you look at the photos of the site on their website they are obviously "doctored" to make it look as though some of the course is finished or close to it. I have not been there but I have been told that other than some clearing, not much has been done.

Similar rumours re the Rise near Vernon and the Couple course.

About 2 weeks ago we had a gentlemen come in who was working on both Wyndansea and Maple Bay.  He mentioned that both courses will have a hard time finding suitable solutions for irrigation as they are in remote areas of the Island.  Maple Bay's owner is also struggling with financing as he was expecting sales for homes to be better then they are.  I guess he was planning to flip the money from the lots into the course.

As for DMK, I really like the look of his courses but then again, I haven't played them.  He also has a great spot for a course just south of Lisbon (where I will be in 2 weeks time) in the sand dunes that looks like it could rival the great minimalist designs of the past few years. 

[Will MacEwen]

Robert,

Thanks.

I understand the Cliffs over Maple Bay on Vancouver Island, which is promoting a Norman course, is in trouble. If you look at the photos of the site on their website they are obviously "doctored" to make it look as though some of the course is finished or close to it. I have not been there but I have been told that other than some clearing, not much has been done.

Similar rumours re the Rise near Vernon and the Couple course.

About 2 weeks ago we had a gentlemen come in who was working on both Wyndansea and Maple Bay.  He mentioned that both courses will have a hard time finding suitable solutions for irrigation as they are in remote areas of the Island.  Maple Bay's owner is also struggling with financing as he was expecting sales for homes to be better then they are.  I guess he was planning to flip the money from the lots into the course.

As for DMK, I really like the look of his courses but then again, I haven't played them.  He also has a great spot for a course just south of Lisbon (where I will be in 2 weeks time) in the sand dunes that looks like it could rival the great minimalist designs of the past few years. 

I have a hunch that Wyndansea will struggle on the golf side of things.  I expect the lots to sell.  However, that side of the Island is windy and stormy year round.  There will be some great summer days, but still likely quite windy.  I suspect that in the winter months I will be able to drive across the Island and play it very, very cheap.

Irrigation would be a problem in those parts as Tofino has had water issues the last two summers.

[Gary Slatter]

He ranks right up there with the best guys working today, IMHO.

DMK "gets it."

Agree 100%, IMHO

[Jordan Caron]

I really hope this course is a success.  It is a little far for me to be a member, but the courses in the mid to north Island all seem to be Les Furber designs.  I play at Morningstar, which is okay.  For me, it doesn't have any goofy holes that drive me nuts, and not too much housing. 

What are your thoughts on some of the courses Nanaimo and north? 

Will,
I grew up in Qualicum playing Morningstar for years.  How can you not tell me 12 isn't a goofy hole??  Maybe it was my draw growing up but both the landing area and green are what I deem unfair.  Overall the layout is ok with 4-7 being solid holes (again 6&7 catered to my draw) and a great pair of finishing holes.  Sure was fun playing the tips back when 7000 was a test.

Since your from that area, what are your thoughts on the tracks up there?

I personally enjoy Qualicum's 9 hole track far greater then anything up there.  From when I first learnt the game to this day and age, I always have fun playing it. 

Storey Creek is probably my next favorite course up there.  A lot like the Star but more secluded with one bad hole #11.  The 3 and 5 pars are strong like Morningstar with a few more stronger par 4's perhaps.  Too bad the owners have never been able to keep the condition up. 

Nanaimo is also pretty good.  Not to long but just right.

Glacier Greens is always fun for me to play.  Holes 9-13 are weak but the front and finishing holes are a good challenge off the tee and coming into the greens. 

Crown Isle is one of my least favorite courses on the Island and since playing it last in 2000, I understand the hole course is lined with homes which is ok as they are off the fairways a ways but still, not the greatest scenery. 

Eaglecrest.....not even going to touch this sad thing, tis a shame the korean couple bought it as it's fair better suited for housing. 

Sunnydale and Comox are also a riot to play because of their length and greens, especially with the dome shapes greens at Sunnydale. 

Things don't get much better down south.  Colwood and Victoria are the only courses I play consistenly down here as they are some bad tracks, OV, Glen Meadows, The marketing tool known as Bear and Uplands.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Has anybody played the Powerscourt club in Ireland?
Is it worth playing over the links courses one normally plays on a trip to Ireland?
Thanks in advance.

Absolutely not.

Powerscourt is a lovely estate. DMK's course was the second eighteen and was built on old farmland on the side of a hill. I enjoy it as a course... there is nice movement in the greens and some nice open approaches... it is fun and when you compare it to the original 18, you can see what the hand of a man with some inspiration can create...

...But it is not even close to the best inland course in ireland, let alone comparing it to the better links courses.

I have walked Queenwood. It is immaculate but it is trying to be a heathland on non-sandy soil...