[Tom Huckaby]

TEP:

Concur with all of that; in fact, that's what I meant.  Most weekend warriors want to shoot a good score, for sure, but not at the cost of trying fun shots, impressing their friends, etc.  Only in tournament play (or perhaps money games) do the stakes get raised enough that they care to think as the pros do.

TH

[Norbert P]

 The MONEY.  $ $ $ $ $ $ $

Jan 28 (Reuters) - Leading money winners on the 2008 PGA
Tour on Monday (U.S. unless stated):
1.  Daniel Chopra (Sweden)        $1,128,090
2.  K.J. Choi (South Korea)       $1,021,500
3.  Rory Sabbatini (South Africa)   $964,000
4.  Tiger Woods                     $936,000
5.  Justin Leonard                  $933,800
6.  D.J. Trahan                     $927,805
7.  Steve Stricker                  $838,688
8.  Ryuji Imada (Japan)             $645,355
9.  Stephen Ames (Canada)           $523,571
10.  Jerry Kelly                     $360,400
11.  Stewart Cink                    $340,870
12.  Mike Weir (Canada)              $321,373
13.  Anthony Kim                     $305,680    
 14. Kenny Perry                     $305,680
15.  Jim Furyk                       $299,932
16.  Steve Marino                    $286,095
17.  Boo Weekley                     $284,060
18.  Troy Matteson                   $283,800
19.  Steve Elkington (Australia)     $278,017
20.  Charles Howell III              $276,672
(Editing by Padraic Halpin)

 That's just for January. Maybe 2 or 3 tourneys?  8 to 12 days of competition.


They get paid to play, while we have to pay to play. We have to save money up for trips, they are comped endlessly.

They get courses with perfect conditioning. Boo hoo if they see a footprint in a bunker.
They get to be selective about where they play, usually by tournament purse value. Or, "I won't play Pebble Beach cuz the greens have poa."
 We play where we can justify the expenses.

 I think we appreciate playing more than most of them do. OK, maybe the rookies and the Seniors enjoy playing, but smiling looks like it hurts most of them.  

On the issue of bunkers; distribute Oakmont rakes for all PGA tourneys. Make them hazards, once again.

[Tom Huckaby]

Slag:

I dig all that (and while I am a child of the 60s only in that I was born in 1963, well, I like to use that term).

I just wonder though.... as you seem to also...

How many pros derive the pure and utter joy from playing the game that I do?

Like you, I wonder if any do.  Oh sure, they don't want to trade lives with me.  But in a weird way, I don't want to trade with them either.

OK, screw that.  I'd kill to be a pro golfer.  But still... there is something cool about loving the game just for the game's sake.

TH

[Norbert P]

Tom Huckaby

Oh sure, they don't want to trade lives with me.  But in a weird way, I don't want to trade with them either.

 Maybe I'd swap wives but they'd go back to their money machines.  (Dang! That fryin' pan hurts!)

[Tom Huckaby]

Maybe swap wives but they'd go back to their money machines.  (Dang! That fryin' pan hurts!)

 
Love it.

[TEPaul]

How much does the "Tour pro" really love the game?

Well, I'll tell you from years and years of watching them and knowing a pretty fair amount of them over the last 50 or so years that if a tour pro doesn't really love golf itself he will be putting himself at both a constant and also a distinct disadvantage out there on tour.

[Norbert P]

 I just think that their motives are different than the regular punter.  

I'm sure they love the money on Monday when the check clears, whereas I hope my check from Sunday doesn't bounce.

I realize they are being rewarded for being the best in the world at something - it just seems so obscene, at times, how much they make, when perhaps a school teacher makes 35 grand in a year. A job that just seems so much nobler than hitting a pill around the hills.  

 I know there's charities and all, but I can't help my perspective.  

[Tom Huckaby]

TEP:

I get that.  They better at least have some love for the game or they won't last long.

But how many of them would or do play the game just for fun, paying their own way?

I know, that's a lot to ask given it's also their job and they get everything comped.

But the stories about Nicklaus hit me hard - him saying he'd never play for fun.  Now for him it was a competition thing - that is, he can't imagine playing non-competitively - but still, that to me at least indicates some amount less of the pure love for the game that some amateurs have.

Thus I wonder how common this is, or if it's just Jack, or what?

[Brian Noser]

Huck I am sure a lot of guys on tour look at golf as a means to money. Look at Boo Weekly, I have heard him say a number of times he looks at golf as a job, he just happens to be good at it. sure there are few who love the game but for a lot on tour I'd Imagine they would rather Fish or hunt or whatever..

and for me it is the ability to limit the mistakes, one bad shot does not lead to multiples. The recovery is crazy IMO...

[JSlonis]

TEP:

I get that.  They better at least have some love for the game or they won't last long.

But how many of them would or do play the game just for fun, paying their own way?

I know, that's a lot to ask given it's also their job and they get everything comped.

But the stories about Nicklaus hit me hard - him saying he'd never play for fun.  Now for him it was a competition thing - that is, he can't imagine playing non-competitively - but still, that to me at least indicates some amount less of the pure love for the game that some amateurs have.

Thus I wonder how common this is, or if it's just Jack, or what?

Huck,

The one pro that I do know of that would absolutely play for the sheer fun of the game would be Arnold Palmer.  He is a man who loves both the competition and the game.  

[Phil Benedict]

But the stories about Nicklaus hit me hard - him saying he'd never play for fun.  Now for him it was a competition thing - that is, he can't imagine playing non-competitively - but still, that to me at least indicates some amount less of the pure love for the game that some amateurs have.

Thus I wonder how common this is, or if it's just Jack, or what?

Huck,

Jack's attitude has always troubled me as well, but you have to remember that his only experience of the game from a pretty early age (16 when he won the Ohio State Open) to middle age was as a great, competitive player.  Maybe if he was never great he would like the game more for it's own sake.

[TEPaul]

Tom:

You have to understand that many of the things Jack has said about certain things over the years are probably things he did not really mean to say if he just stepped back and thought about it a bit more.

One recent remark of that ilk by Jack was that Tom Doak had no understanding of what a real golf shot is all about.  

Maybe what Jack meant to say with that remark is that Tom Doak has never experienced what it feels like to hit the type of shot Jack must have been referring to. But that is certainly not the same thing as saying Tom Doak has no understanding of what a golf shot is (particularly in the context of golf architecture).

[George Pazin]

I realize they are being rewarded for being the best in the world at something - it just seems so obscene, at times, how much they make, when perhaps a school teacher makes 35 grand in a year. A job that just seems so much nobler than hitting a pill around the hills.

Apparently teachers in western PA do a lot better than Oregon teachers. And if you spent a lot of time around them, you might adjust your opinion of their noble cause.

Being the best in the world at just about anything is generally pretty lucrative, whether it's sports, music, chess, science, or just being damn beautiful. Some see that as the ugly side of capitalism, I happen to see beauty in it. And no, I'm nowhere near the best at anything, so I'm not one of those highly compensated folks.

And I don't get 30 yard 2 bounce wedge shot, either!

[George Freeman]

The shot from 30 yards that bounces twice, checks, and stops dead.

That shot has nothing to do with clubhead speed, but I've never done it or seen it done in person.

I agree...I think the biggest difference between a good golfer and a pro is the following yardage: 60-30 yds.  In my opinion the hardest yardages in golf, and pros seem to get it with in 6 feet no matter what the situation.

[George Pazin]

The shot from 30 yards that bounces twice, checks, and stops dead.

That shot has nothing to do with clubhead speed, but I've never done it or seen it done in person.

I agree...I think the biggest difference between a good golfer and a pro is the following yardage: 60-30 yds.  In my opinion the hardest yardages in golf, and pros seem to get it with in 6 feet no matter what the situation.

Honest question: How much of that is talent and how much is just playing all the time?

I'm not bad-mouthing hard work, I just wonder how much it helps in golf.

[George Freeman]

The shot from 30 yards that bounces twice, checks, and stops dead.

That shot has nothing to do with clubhead speed, but I've never done it or seen it done in person.

I agree...I think the biggest difference between a good golfer and a pro is the following yardage: 60-30 yds.  In my opinion the hardest yardages in golf, and pros seem to get it with in 6 feet no matter what the situation.

Honest question: How much of that is talent and how much is just playing all the time?

I'm not bad-mouthing hard work, I just wonder how much it helps in golf.

I believe it is a combination of the two (however, skewed towards pure talent)...Obviously the pros were born with a lot of their talent, but when you couple that with 1000s of hours of practice, that's the result you get.

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks guys.  I get it.  In the end people are people.  But riddle me this:  on today's PGA Tour, are there more golf-loving Arnies, or competition is all it's about / it's a job Jacks and Boos?

I really don't know... do you guys?

TH

[George Pazin]

I believe a quick search will yield more John's and David's than Jack's or Boos - but only one Tiger.

 

[Tom Huckaby]

I believe a quick search will yield more John's and David's than Jack's or Boos - but only one Tiger.

 

rim shot
 

But here's the question then... on what side does Tiger fall?

From all I've heard, he's an Arnie.  Seeing him in flip flops battling his buddies at Stanford (as I did when he was there), I have to believe it.  No?

[Steve Kline]

i I really believe most golfers do know how to think as you describe it (more or less) - they just actively do NOT do it!  Pros have to do it as their livlihood is at stake; most weekend warriors surely can course manage quite well - it's just not what they're out there to do.  "I didn't pay $100 and leave the kids to lay up" is just as viable as thinking like a pro.

I have to disagree here. Let me give an example. I'm playing in my first match in the US Mid-Am last year. I just birdied 15 at Bandon Dunes to get back to even after losing 14 and 15. On 16 I hit my drive slightly right of where I wanted and didn't carry the ridge. I'm on the upslope, in the rough, ball below my feet, slight flier lie, about 115 yards, blind shot, pin tucked front right and a hazard to the right. I checked my line for the pin, picked a spot on the hill in lie with the pin, and hit my shot. I caught it a little too pure and a slight flier. The ball landed on the back of the green, took one bounce and went into the flier. Now if I had aimed just 15 feet or so left of the hole and shot that went a little long would have been on the back of the green. Based on all the info I just gave you, I really had no business going at that pin no matter where my opponent. There was just too much risk in it. But, I had just birdied the previous hole and my mind was racing. Now on TV it is very easy for me to tell a tour player the appropriate shot to hit at any time during a round. Where they should miss it, etc. But, under the gun, at a critical moment my mind blanked and I didn't consider the odds of success versus the consequences of a bad shot. So, what amazes me is that a guy like Tiger does the right thing almost 100% of the time. A guy like David Toms could do it on the 72nd hole of a major championship. So, when there's no pressure I can do it, the first time I was under the gun I just didn't think through all the possibilities correctly. Yes, part of was I hadn't any tournament golf for five years, but I know the right thing to do when watching and when playing at home.

[Tom Huckaby]

Steve:

I don't get what you are disagreeing with.  Please explain.

As I read it, you as a top amateur in an important event failed to think as well as a pro does routinely.  OK, sure, I get that, no surprise that that happens.  I get that the pros are the best at this and I get that it is a skill.  As I said later in my post, the discipline to ACT ON the right choice after it is made is what they excel at.  This seems to be just what you are saying, so I don't see where we disagree.

My point was that KNOWING what the right choice is is not rocket science; and ven if it is, my larger point is that us weekend warriors simply don't care most of the time.  That is, it's not important to make the right choice to yield the lowest possible score - we're playing for many other reasons, score being just one of them.  So we hit stupid shots, but not because we're dumb or the pros are somehow smarter, but because we really don't care.

It's a pretty esoteric point, certainly.

TH

[George Pazin]

Esoteric, perhaps, but I'd argue it's accurate. I make the conservative choice quite frequently, but when you play and practice as infrequently as I do, it doesn't much matter.

Steve, if it makes you feel any better, consider a saying by one of our local sports shock-jocks: What could have happened, did.

 

[Tim Leahy]

The shot from 30 yards that bounces twice, checks, and stops dead.
That shot has nothing to do with clubhead speed, but I've never done it or seen it done in person.

I am glad to hear a good player say that, I have been trying to practice that shot for years and can't do it.
I can never understand the spin they get and the great ups and downs around the greens. Even the LPGA, I went to a tourney years ago and was amazed how bad the women's long irons were but was amazed how great the ups and downs were and those short spin/stop shots were amazing.

[Brock Peyer]

I can't relate to 220 yard 5 irons and shots of similar length.  Also, I can't relate to their short games, up and down from anywhere, everywhere and no where and then also all the putts that they make.  I haven't made a 25 footer in a round in 4 or 5 years (so it seems) but they are trying to make them (that may be the answer to my problem).

Also, I can't relate to many of their desires to dress in terribly bad clothing...

[Steve Kline]

The shot from 30 yards that bounces twice, checks, and stops dead.

That shot has nothing to do with clubhead speed, but I've never done it or seen it done in person.

I agree...I think the biggest difference between a good golfer and a pro is the following yardage: 60-30 yds.  In my opinion the hardest yardages in golf, and pros seem to get it with in 6 feet no matter what the situation.

Honest question: How much of that is talent and how much is just playing all the time?

I'm not bad-mouthing hard work, I just wonder how much it helps in golf.

I basically never practice. I warm up on the range, hit a few putts, and play. Maybe ten hours total of practice in all of 2007. But my handicap went from 1 to +4 because I was able to play at least twice week every week. The more I play the better I get. Once you start playing that much your feel gets better, you learn how to hit out of different lies and other things you won't get by practicing in my opinion. Practice just gets me trying to make the perfect swing.

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