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TEPaul

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #100 on: January 30, 2008, 06:03:29 PM »
"You know Tom, I have always loved the idealism in that thought by Max Behr about "true sportsman", but it's never quite sat right with me...I think I know why...in fishing, you know when you have been successful (you caught the fish). When you feel your skills have advanced to the point that you might need to downgrade your equipment, you can...same sort of scenario with hunting...

But the golf analogy struggles for the simple reason that noone ever conquers golf. What would dictate me, a scratch handicap ex-pro, downgrading my equipment to not "overwhelm" the course?"


Sully:

I don't disagree with you at all there and you make valid points. I don't even know that Behr would disagree with you. He may've known perfectly well that what he said in those analogies was idealistic.

On the other hand, he was citing something that had certainly been part of golf but it was a long time ago, even quite a long while before him.

I believe his underlying purpose in using those analogoies was simply to make the point that the element of "nature" in golf should never be overlooked or forgotten. His point about a "sportsman's" mentality in golf like that was also a time when all golfers essentially accepted the randomness, luck and vagaries of natural sites pretty much as they were. Obviously one reason for that is way back then they didn't have much ability to change it, so the thought of even attempting to overwhelm it with equipment or of materially alterating its landscape didn't much even occur to them, and certainly not to the degree it does to us today.

However, Behr's analogy with hunting and fishing to golf in that way was a bit more interesting.

For instance, in competition he did not believe that kind of "sportsman's" choice to limit or manage his equipment down to the point of just sustaining his skill against the course would work, and for the same obvious reasons we would give today---eg it would essentially defeat a golfer's chances in competition. Behr actually advocated for "standardization" in competition and it's interesting to note that his recommendation was with the golf ball that was a "floater". In  fact he advocated for legislation of a standardized "competition" ball.

For the rest, for non-formal competition and certainly for non-competition against human opponents he did not advocate for equipment and ball "standardization". He essentially advocated that in a competition just against a golf course (nature) only a golfer both could and perhaps should use that "sportsman's" inclination to limit his equipment down to the point of what he felt could just sustain his skill against his opponent---in this case a golf course and its hazards just like the weight of a fish or or the size of a bird.

That would probably be something like a golfer of your skill playing with persimmon, old irons and old performance golf balls just to see how they stacked up strategically against the architectural arrangment of the course.

Behr's opinions on this may not make much sense to golfers today but I think it's hard for anyone to deny that it really does show a remarkable appreciation for the ramifications of nature in the context of golf as a golfer simply playing against a natural golf course.

M. Shea Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #101 on: January 30, 2008, 06:24:57 PM »
I don't even know where to begin with this thread. I feel strongly about the issues being discussed.  


The AJGA is an extremely important tool for junior golfers to showcase their talent. Every golf coach uses this tour as a way to recruit.  The way golf is recruited makes it much more difficult than any  other sport.

With that said I am not a fan of the AJGA and what goes on with the whole thing. Most of all I dislike(d) the players on the tour. I never played one AJGA event, and I hope that my brother will never as well. (he is 10, and coming off his first summer playing tournaments with the MET PGA Junior series)

« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 06:33:20 PM by M. Shea Sweeney »

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #102 on: January 30, 2008, 07:46:28 PM »
I followed this thread for the first dozen posts and then went snowboarding....it would appear that three pages later things have morphed...

You can do what ever you want to the "arena"....pick any sport....and the best athletes will excel....great athletes adjust and adapt, and barring  putting them in shackles they will rise to the top of the food change....

You can do whatever you want to golf...make the course longer, make the ball duller, make the course shorter or hairier, and guys like Tiger and Phil and Jack will be on top...it will not matter.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #103 on: January 30, 2008, 09:17:18 PM »
shivas me lad:

That may have been the way it is in your day... it's not how it is today.  Take the testimony of Lou Duran.... I've received other tales just like that via IM... the point is, success in national-type tournaments would seem to be a prerequisite for success at the higher levels.  Certainly the field in any given event is still likely to have more locals than out of towners; that's not the point.  The point is that one better have success in more than a few of these events - and not just the one nearest to your home - for the college coaches to give you a sniff.  And success in local tournaments, be it high school or otherwise, is just plain not enough.

That's how things have changed, and that's why I make the point I do.

BTW M. Shea - I too have heard not so flattering stories about the players in these AJGA events... the term prima donna comes to mind.  Sad...



Glenn Spencer

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #104 on: January 30, 2008, 09:24:47 PM »
TH,

Let's say a kid wins his state junior at 14 and 16, then wins his state amateur at 17 in Ohio or California. Are you telling me that he is not going big-time?

Coaches ask where is he at the national level and word gets around that is parents don't have the cash to play ball. Does he play mostly anywhere he wants if his grades are good or not?

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #105 on: January 30, 2008, 09:30:26 PM »
He or she will play somewhere-it may not be Stanford or Notre Dame or Northwestern due to academic rigidity but D1 is a given with those acheivements on a resume.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #106 on: January 30, 2008, 09:53:49 PM »
I don't know Jack Crisham, but I love him too.

 ;D

The question here was how to get to the top of the game, not how to get a scholarship at Podunk U.  But shivas, come on, you WANT to be listed with those losers?  You should be pissed.

Glenn: I've said several times there will always be exceptions - you just illustrated one - a damn far-fetched one, but one that works.  A kid could also win the Uranus Invitational and get a long look as well.   ;)  My point remains that on the whole, these national events are the coin of the realm of golf success these days.  And nothing anyone has written here has made me budge from that assessment - understanding again that I think it sucks, but that's the way it is.

TH
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 09:54:51 PM by Tom Huckaby »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #107 on: January 30, 2008, 09:57:12 PM »
Huck,

Of all of the people currently playing on any form of the PGA or LPGA tours only 160 have even entered one AJGA event.  I find that to be a low number that the AJGA seems feel the need to be bragging over.  I found the information in their literature.  They are hacks.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #108 on: January 30, 2008, 10:04:15 PM »
JK:

How many times do I have to remind you?  My point is not about how it is now, but how things will be soon.  Most of the tour went through the old system.  We need to speak again in 5-10 years.

Thus your post is irrelevant.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #109 on: January 30, 2008, 10:20:14 PM »
shivas:

The difference between now and then is that many of the players play multiple events; the results are easily and immediately published and viewed nationwide; and the results are used to come up with national rankings for juniors, which are also very widely viewed, trusted and used.

My point remains that back in the day local success might have been enough.  Today that's just not the case.  Or do you think Lou Duran and the others giving concrete examples of this are just full of shit?

John Kavanaugh

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #110 on: January 30, 2008, 10:21:11 PM »
Even the AJGA claims to have been around since 78.  They also love to lay claim to the USGA real events.  They drop Tiger's name more than Huck mentions Sir H. or GG.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2008, 10:22:46 PM by John Kavanaugh »

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #111 on: January 30, 2008, 10:24:45 PM »
Even the AJGA claims to have been around since 78.  They also love to lay claim to the USGA real events.  They drop Tiger's name more than Huck mentions Sir H. or GG.

I don't doubt they've been around a long time.  The influence the tour has is a modern thing, pretty much coinciding with the internet.

But help me out, who or what is GG?  And I wonder if they drop Tiger's name more than you pat yourself on the back for your self-declared golf altruism?



Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #112 on: January 30, 2008, 10:27:34 PM »
Yup.  Walk ons have had a hard time getting a serious look at top programs forever, too.  It's all bullsh*t.  A kid who can play is a kid who can play.  Go ask a college coach if that statement is true and you'll get 100% positive response.

Walk ons are walk ons for a reason.  Always has been.  Always will be.  I know.  ::) :o >:(

At least now the truth comes out.

 ;D ;D

I just wonder if there will ever BE any more walkons, say 10 years from now?  Perhaps at Santa Clara or Northwestern... not at any school of greater athletic worth.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #113 on: January 30, 2008, 10:32:37 PM »
First I heard you were a walkon.

And yes I do owe you a beer, which I am quite prepared to pay.  I think however the chances of you showing up are about the same as me being there for all events... which is to say... well... I remain a doubting Thomas.

Here's hoping I do get to pay.  I shall toast the the greater glory of Northwestern, happily so.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #114 on: January 31, 2008, 02:02:01 AM »
John:

Long ago there was actually a concept in golf that was advanced by some of the early and perhaps best writers on golf and architecture that since the only opponent in golf is the golf course and not the human opponent (much like the sports of hunting and fishing etc) that the idea was for any player who considered himself a "sportsman" to ONLY use a ball and equipment that he felt could JUST sustain his physical skill in relation to the golf course and nothing more.

This was no different than the idea that a real sportsman in hunting does not use a 10 gauge shotgun to shoot a small bird and a sportsman in fishing does not use a line test much too heavy for the size of the fish he's after.

To do either of those things was not considered "sporting" because that kind of equipment would overwhelm his quarry or opponent and consequently not be an adequate test of his skill.

This idea never caught on very well in golf as everyone seemed to want to use whatever was allowable unlike the true "sportsman's" mentality in other sports where nature was the true opponent and where one who considered himself a true sportsman voluntarily reduced his equipment to a point that maximized the evidence of his physical and mental skill.


You know Tom, I have always loved the idealism in that thought by Max Behr about "true sportsman", but it's never quite sat right with me...I think I know why...in fishing, you know when you have been successful (you caught the fish). When you feel your skills have advanced to the point that you might need to downgrade your equipment, you can...same sort of scenario with hunting...

But the golf analogy struggles for the simple reason that noone ever conquers golf. What would dictate me, a scratch handicap ex-pro, downgrading my equipment to not "overwhelm" the course?

Sully

I have had this go round with Tom previously.  I don't believe there is competition with a golf course for two reasons.  First, look up the definition of competition and no where does it mention that the playing field is a competitor.  At best, in this scenario one is competing with oneself (or the best that oneself can produce).  Second, as you mention, when does a player know he has beaten the course?  Par is thrown in this instance, but we all know that par for a course is not the course.  In fact, par can be argued to have none or very little relationship to the course itself.  Its easier to see par as an instrument of scoring for competitive purposes (in a REAL competition against people) then anything to do with the course itself.  All Behrisms aside, I think the old boy was barking up the wrong tree as his analogies don't hold up.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 09:55:21 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #115 on: January 31, 2008, 09:31:55 AM »
shivas:
I still think I am right at how it goes now, and will go in the future... just understand that I in no way support it nor think there's anything good or beneficial about it.  In fact I think it sucks.  But I do think that's the way it is, and will go.

Like the rest, we need to talk again in 5-10 years, see how many of that day's stars played these nationwide events, how many made it without doing such.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #116 on: January 31, 2008, 09:41:46 AM »
Huck,

So when it is too late for a golfer to start if you think this is the only route.  Do you actually believe that male golfers are pre-determined by 18?  Have you bought into the same line of crap that people tell you about your kids if you want them to get in a good school.  How much did you spend on pre-K?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #117 on: January 31, 2008, 09:44:38 AM »
Huck,

So when it is too late for a golfer to start if you think this is the only route.  Do you actually believe that male golfers are pre-determined by 18?  Have you bought into the same line of crap that people tell you about your kids if you want them to get in a good school.  How much did you spend on pre-K?

JK:

Enough.  I never said it's the only route; I just said it's the route most will take.  And what the hell this has to do with me, or my kids... well, you've gone way too far.

TH


John Kavanaugh

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #118 on: January 31, 2008, 09:54:20 AM »
Huck,

Your opinion on the AJGA has everything to do with kids, yours, mine and the other people on this board.  You are saying now that if we even want our kids to play at a state school like Texas we have to get on the circuit soon or give up.  I just don't agree.  I think you rich double income urbanites look for excuses to send your kids to boarding schools.  Golf academies are loser factories.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 09:54:34 AM by John Kavanaugh »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #119 on: January 31, 2008, 09:58:17 AM »
Huck,

If you want to look 5 or 10 years down the road tell me how the American tennis scene is doing since mommie has become super agent to junior?  Great golfers are not mommies boys.

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #120 on: January 31, 2008, 10:03:18 AM »
Huck,

Your opinion on the AJGA has everything to do with kids, yours, mine and the other people on this board.  You are saying now that if we even want our kids to play at a state school like Texas we have to get on the circuit soon or give up.  I just don't agree.  I think you rich double income urbanites look for excuses to send your kids to boarding schools.  Golf academies are loser factories.

What's moronic here is you can't read, or just WANT to give me opinions that I don't come close to holding.

Let me repeat, for about the 10th time:  I neither support this system nor see any benefit from it.  I think it sucks.  I just do think that's the way MANY do go now, and will from this point forward.  I am NOT saying that's what I would do, nor what anyone else SHOULD do.  I never have.

So give me a break, will you?

And are you just looking for lines to step over?  You crossed another one here.  My kids are as close to boarding schools as you are to being our President.

TH

Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #121 on: January 31, 2008, 10:05:07 AM »
Huck,

If you want to look 5 or 10 years down the road tell me how the American tennis scene is doing since mommie has become super agent to junior?  Great golfers are not mommies boys.

Agreed.  But this is the road we are heading down.

Need I insert the caveats again that I think it sucks?



Tom Huckaby

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #122 on: January 31, 2008, 10:07:00 AM »
Golf academies are loser factories.

JK: I envy your brevity skills.

shivas:  please tell me YOU understand I agree with that.  That in all of this, I never supported it nor said it's the right way nor said anything positive about it.  All I ever said is that it's the way it is becoming, and will be.

And sadly I do think I'm right.  But now moronic Kavanaugh has me pegged as a rich double income suburbanite sending my kids to boarding schools.

My wife is gonna die if she hears that... die laughing, that is...

Peter Pallotta

Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #123 on: January 31, 2008, 10:17:12 AM »
Sean -

you make a good case. But just as food for thought: can an argument not be made that, in architectural terms, the fishing analogy holds in the sense that a golfers experience at TOC (with its widths and wind and changing strategy-options) is akin to the experience of a fly fisherman standing in the middle of a wide and fast flowing river, using light tackle and trying to intuit where a salmon might be before casting his line and preparing himself for a long fight?

I'm not saying this is what Behr meant so much as telling you what the analogy brings to my mind. I also think that Behr, besides having been a competitive golfer himself, was also a 'sportsman' in an era of the privileged sportsmen, and that he was writing mostly to them and appealing to their sporting instincts...saying, in effect, that the experience of shooting fish in a barrel wasn't the one they ought to be seeking...and talking about golf course architecture as a means to create the kinds of fields of play that could offer the sportsman more than that.

Peter      

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Despite the field changing the most has the game changed the least?
« Reply #124 on: January 31, 2008, 10:24:35 AM »
Peter, I do believe you have hit on something.

Commercialized gca is like shooting fish in a barrel.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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