Bandon Dunes Trip Feb 8-11, Looking For One Golfer

[Scott Weersing]

There is now another opening for our trip. Another person from the NW dropped out tonight. So now you can join us for the trip.

Please send me or Jeff a message if you can join us.

[Michael Dugger]

Michael--
Please explain how I've been anything but fair to the Crossings?  I've played it enough to have an informed opinion and I simply offered it up.  
As for walking the Crossings, have you done it?  I have.  The routing works all right on a cart but feels disjointed on foot, and that doesn't even begin to address the trek from 5 green to 6 tee.  Yes the Trails covers a lot of ground, but it was designed as a walking only layout.  The Crossings strikes me as a cart only layout.
People have a hard time objectively judging a golf course.  If they had fun then it must be a good course.  One of my favorite rounds of 2007 was on what can only be described fairly as a goat track.  Company,weather and simply playing the game we all love get in the way of an objective analysis.  This also becomes harder when talking about a new course which very few have played more then once (particullary on here where I find myself discussing it with people who've never played it).

Whatever, Joe, check back in when you bust out your pedometer, since walking appears to be what you do for a living, and get back to me on how far a walk Bandon Crossings is, and how far a walk Bandon Trails is.

While your at it, take your white jumper down to Chambers Bay and calculate how many miles one logs walking that tract too.

Objective analysis!?!?!  There is no such thing, brah, nice try though.
 

[Andy Troeger]

Joe,
How about you provide some actual objective analysis on the Crossings? All I've gotten beneath your shots at the course is that you consider it unwalkable and excessively wet. You may have done this on the other thread in which case refer me to it and I'll try to find it.

[Andy Troeger]

Coming to Bandon and playing the Crossings is like going to Disneyworld and sitting in your room playing video games.  

Hmm...well there's that one. Or where you said that it was almost unplayable (while another poster who played it this month claimed it was fine), or your remark "Great source, the pro shop at Crossings" since obviously nobody working there can be trusted.

For all I know you may be right, and you may just not like the golf course on its own merits. Its just hard to give your comments much weight when you seem to want to go out of your way to create the air out of animosity with the golf course.

And you did offer some architectural analysis as I was looking through the other thread for more evidence so I'll settle for that  

[Joe Hancock]

Joe Bentham,

Can your opinion of Bandon Resort courses be trusted? By your own example, it doesn't appear to be the case.

Joe

[Michael Dugger]

Michael--
Please explain how I've been anything but fair to the Crossings?  I've played it enough to have an informed opinion and I simply offered it up.  
As for walking the Crossings, have you done it?  I have.  The routing works all right on a cart but feels disjointed on foot, and that doesn't even begin to address the trek from 5 green to 6 tee.  Yes the Trails covers a lot of ground, but it was designed as a walking only layout.  The Crossings strikes me as a cart only layout.
People have a hard time objectively judging a golf course.  If they had fun then it must be a good course.  One of my favorite rounds of 2007 was on what can only be described fairly as a goat track.  Company,weather and simply playing the game we all love get in the way of an objective analysis.  This also becomes harder when talking about a new course which very few have played more then once (particullary on here where I find myself discussing it with people who've never played it).

Whatever, Joe, check back in when you bust out your pedometer, since walking appears to be what you do for a living, and get back to me on how far a walk Bandon Crossings is, and how far a walk Bandon Trails is.

While your at it, take your white jumper down to Chambers Bay and calculate how many miles one logs walking that tract too.

Objective analysis!?!?!  There is no such thing, brah, nice try though.
 

great post Michael.  If course A is 7 miles long and course B is seven miles long then the walk must be the same.  Great logic.
As for Chambers, I've played it.  Have you?  Its a tougher walk then Trails, but again it was designed as walking only so there is no comparison between it and Crossings.  I have a feeling you've never been out of a cart unless the place was walking only.  Because there is a lot that goes into making a course walkable besides just total distance.....

Yup, that's me, a cart golfer through and through.

Does anyone here know if I've ever been to Chambers Bay, BTW?

You have really failed to add anything to this discussion thus far, Joe.  All you've done is drag it down and insult a nice facility in Bandon Crossings.  

Perhaps you are better served posting on some other website.

Around here we usually back up our positions with data, facts and examples.  Nor do we really respect the positions of people who make stuff up.   Nowhere did I say if one course measures 7500 yds and another is 7500 (*on the card) they are an equal walk.

NOWHERE DID I SAY SUCH A THING, they are not an equal walk.

My point (although surely it's going to be as lost on you as all the others have been) is Bandon Trails is a very demanding walk, IMHO , whether it was "designed for walking" or not.  I posit it's easily as long and difficult a walk as Crossings, or Chambers, for that matter.

Just what exactly does that mean, anyways?
"Designed for Walking?"

I found most of the green too tee junctions at Bandon Crossings to be almost too close, concluding me to think the course is "designed for walking" just as much as designed for carts.

[Andy Troeger]

Joe,
I'm not going to convince you of much anything and won't try but I will say this...

I will agree that people are likely not going to make a special trip to Bandon to play the Crossings without also going to the resort, while certainly people will stay at the resort and skip the Crossings probably in large numbers. If Crossings does well with any of the magazines it will likely help business tremendously.

The issue is not whether someone would fly to Bandon just to play the Crossings (because the answer's probably no), or even whether someone would take a round away from the resort to play it (still doubtful), but whether someone would add an extra half-day to the trip in order to play an additional round there (I would).

[Michael Dugger]

Well put, Andy.

If you are a bona fide die hard, a true student of golf course architecture, Bandon Crossings is a no brainer.

I wholeheartedly believe there are a good handful of courses in the world where you are probably not going to see anything special or unique, and some of them are in the greater Bandon area (Face Rock and Kentuck.)

But it's an insult to Bandon Crossings to suggest it falls into that category.  

It's a horsebleep thing to say.  

There is a lot of very good golf at Crossings.

In lieu of how wildly successful Bandon Dunes is, I find it almost comical that Joe is rippin' on Crossings.  They are not a threat to the BD empire.  

They will never be a threat.

Isn't there enough room in town for both of 'em?

[Michael Dugger]

Joe,

We both know A. one 7000 yd layout (on the card)

and B. another 7000 yd layout (on the card)

do not walk the same

We must consider hills, and we must especially consider walks in between holes.

I propose a pedometer reading of metres walked for each of the courses would prove interesting.

How do you propose we measure the difficulty of a golf walk, Joe?  Turn our brains off and just take your word for it?

[Steve Kline]

I would think having Bandon Crossings and other good courses in the area would help the Bandon Dunes empire. I never hear Pinehurst caddies railing against Pine Needles, Mid Pines or any other courses in the Pinehurst area. Those courses don't hurt play on the Pinehurst Resort courses. I bet they help it because some people may only want to or can afford one or two rounds at the resort. So without the other courses they wouldn't even come. I doubt caddies in Philly, New York, Whistling Straits or any other do that either. The fact there would be more opportunities for golf in Bandon would be a good thing. More options is rarely bad for consumer and can often be better for the monopolist.

In our business, trade magazines, losing a competitor doesn't increase our ad revenue. Companies advertising in the competitor more often than not just do not spend those dollars instead of moving them to another magazine. The Bandon situation might be analagous.

[John Mayhugh]

The routing works all right on a cart but feels disjointed on foot, and that doesn't even begin to address the trek from 5 green to 6 tee.  

I was curious enough to take a look at the Bandon Crossings routing.  If I measured correctly, the "trek" from 5 green to 6 is less than 300 yards.  Walking at a 4 mile/hour pace, this gives you a grueling 2.5 minute walk across the challenging terrain???.  Considering you are going from a reachable par 5 to a longish par 3, walking golfers probably would not get rushed at all.

Most of the other greensites seem pretty close to the next tee.  Course looks rather walkable to me.

[Michael Dugger]

The routing works all right on a cart but feels disjointed on foot, and that doesn't even begin to address the trek from 5 green to 6 tee.  

I was curious enough to take a look at the Bandon Crossings routing.  If I measured correctly, the "trek" from 5 green to 6 is less than 300 yards.  Walking at a 4 mile/hour pace, this gives you a grueling 2.5 minute walk across the challenging terrain???.  Considering you are going from a reachable par 5 to a longish par 3, walking golfers probably would not get rushed at all.

Most of the other greensites seem pretty close to the next tee.  Course looks rather walkable to me.

The "lowlands" is definately a transition zone, and I bet with all the rain we've been having, it's probably a bit of a mess.

But you are right, John, it's not all that grueling or long of a walk.
 

[Kalen Braley]

I don't have a dog in this fight, and I feel no need to pile on Joe any further because he is doing pretty well at the moment in inserting foot in mouth.

I do have Google Earth though, and they do have updated aerials that now includes a close look at Bandons Crossings.

As I haven't played either course, I can't speak to the severity of the terrain, but I did use the measuring tool and came up with the following:  

Bandon Crossings is 4.79 miles from the 1st tee to 18th green to walk.
Bandon Trails is 4.69 miles from 1st tee to 18 green.

Your distance differential is a massive .1 miles.

[Norbert P]

If Crossings does well with any of the magazines, it will likely help business tremendously.

Here's a Bandon Crossings link to Golf Magazine's Gallery of Best New Public of 2007.    

  Thanks to Professor Bayley, . . .

Golf Magazine Best New


 The caption writer couldn't help but compare it to the Resort courses.  Will this method forever be its scale of worth?  

  If I ever play Ballybunion Old, I will surely play Cashen.
  I regret not playing Struie. And Dunbar.
  Would you go to play Sand Hills and not play Wildhorse? Or Bayside?
 
   BXing hint on #10 - ideal drive is between center bunker and left bunker. Best angle to (possibly blind) green.  
 
  BTW. . . you won't fall asleep on the BX greens.  

  My most memorable shot I've seen at BX was Michael Dugger's draw shot on the Re-dan #11. Textbook.  The bastard sank the putt too.  

[Garland Bayley]

Fixed link. Slag, you can post pictures, doing links here is similar and easy.

Here's a Bandon Crossings link to Golf Magazine's Gallery of Best New Public of 2007.   (Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste the whole link to your address bar)

 Golf Magazine Best New

...

[Garland Bayley]

Slagbert,

Just push the quote button on my post, and you will see how it is done.

[Norbert P]

Fixed link. Slag, you can post pictures, doing links here is similar and easy.

Here's a Bandon Crossings link to Golf Magazine's Gallery of Best New Public of 2007.   (Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste the whole link to your address bar)

 Golf Magazine Best New

...

Gracias.  Comprende' !

Every day I learn something. Unfortunately, I forget two things.

[Michael Dugger]

Ah, Slag, you are so nice.  You forgot to mention how your worm burner stole my KP, though, on 11 at BX!

I got yer message the other day, BTW, I was in Bend....of course posting on gca.com from Pat's house!

We shall hook up very very soon.  I got a book for ya.

[Kalen Braley]

Joe,

I'm still not following you.  

At Bandon Crossings Google Earth puts the elevation of 5 green at 42 feet and 6 Tee at 101 feet for a 59 foot differential.

However,

Google Earth also puts 13 green at Bandon Trails at 104 feet, and 14 tee at 164 feet for a 60 foot differential.

Why is it bad design and not conducive to walking at Bandon Crossings, yet OK at Bandon Trails when the player must walk uphill with the same elevation differential?

I'm really trying to see your side here but when you make these kind of statements and the facts show otherwise, the only thing left for us to surmise is nothing short of ignorant bias on your part.

Kalen

[John Mayhugh]

The routing works all right on a cart but feels disjointed on foot, and that doesn't even begin to address the trek from 5 green to 6 tee.  

I was curious enough to take a look at the Bandon Crossings routing.  If I measured correctly, the "trek" from 5 green to 6 is less than 300 yards.  Walking at a 4 mile/hour pace, this gives you a grueling 2.5 minute walk across the challenging terrain???.  Considering you are going from a reachable par 5 to a longish par 3, walking golfers probably would not get rushed at all.

Most of the other greensites seem pretty close to the next tee.  Course looks rather walkable to me.

The point missed is that 5 green is the lowest point on the course and 6 tee is the highest.  If you can make that walk in less then 3 mins you should be in the olympics.  I'm done discussing courses with people who HAVEN'T played them.....

Joe, if it were up to you NO ONE would play Bandon Crossings so there would be no discussion.

I may be uninformed, but you are hopelessly biased.  

[Jed Peters]

Why is it bad design and not conducive to walking at Bandon Crossings, yet OK at Bandon Trails when the player must walk uphill with the same elevation differential?
Kalen

Nobody walks between 13 and 14 at Trails.

(Just sayin')

[Michael Dugger]

There are a slew of tough climbs at Trails, in my opinion.

Up to the first green.

Up the ridge over #4.

Up to the 7th green

Up the 14th hole itself, let alone the walk to the tee from #13.

Up the 16th.

Up the 18th.

It's brutal......yet we do it.  I'd rather walk Crossings, honestly.

[Michael Dugger]

Joe,

Whatever, man, your last post has affirmed there is no communicating with a guy like you.

Way to resort to the "I've done it more than you" thus I am a fool and you are a genius.

I agree with you in that walking through the bottomlands of Bx is somewhat rhythm breaking.  Nobody has ever refuted such a fact.  However to claim it is dogcrap because so is purely a subjective perspective.  Since the course does not offer "a break at the turn," the trek between #5 and #6 and vice versa offers this respite.

You, quite obviously, think it sucks.  Others might actually fancy this aspect of the routing.

You argue like a middle schooler.  What's next, your daddy is going to beat up my daddy?

"I've walked BT 750 times."  Yippee

[John Mayhugh]

I'll save you the time.  The recent deluge of rain has rendered the crossings almost unplayable.  I would make sure they where letting you take carts before I went down there because you won't want to walk it....

JohnM--
Above you'll see my first post from this thread.  Kindly point out where I tell Scott not to play the Crossings...

You did not tell Scott not to play the Crossings.  I did not say you told Scott not to play the Crossings.

My issue with you is simple.  You are promoting Bandon (which is fine) without disclosing that you work there (note I said there instead of for).  I gave you the chance to address that and own up to your relationship with Bandon and you avoided it.  That makes your credibility on this subject questionable.

Several of us have tried to point out facts with yardages & elevations changes, yet you seem to think everyone should yield to your superior knowledge.  You do not seem to understand why we might think your opinions are biased by your Bandon relationship.  I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp this concept.

[Jeff Doerr]

Why is it bad design and not conducive to walking at Bandon Crossings, yet OK at Bandon Trails when the player must walk uphill with the same elevation differential?
Kalen

Nobody walks between 13 and 14 at Trails.

(Just sayin')

I'm really not sure I want to step into this thread, but...

If you take the shuttle at BT, it really spoils the journey IMHO & you miss this great view that you get on the "Forest Walk" Trail.