The Dukes Course - St. Andrews

[Norbert P]

 The other courses in St. Andrews are never spoken of much but I found a photo gallery that has some revealing shots of a course that seems down the list for discussion.  But dang! it looks amazing.

The third hole at The Dukes Course . . .


Photo by Brandon Tucker

There are other photos available at the website . . . (and I suggest bookmarking the home page.)

http://www.golfeurope.com/photo-galleries/the-duke-s-course-in-st-andrews-scotland-4890.htm


Why isn't Dukes on the rota for travellers?
Does it have great golf?  

[Michael Dugger]

Damn straight, Slag

That is a nice looking golf hole!!

Brian Phillips toured Dukes recently and snapped some images.....

You can find them here.......

http://gallery.mac.com/niblick#100021&bgcolor=black&view=grid

Here's a teaser

[Chris Kane]

It isn't on the rota because it doesn't have great golf.  I liked the front nine a lot, but the back nine lets it down significantly.

[Philippe Binette]

I worked a bit out there in 2006.

It looks like Andrew Campbell and Derek Robson are doing a great job with the grassing and maintenance of the course which follows the ideas that Tim liddy put forward.
I don't know if they work on the drainage but in summer you'll probably get firm and fast conditions which would make the course play better, it might be soft in the winter though.

The course is owned by the Old Course Hotel, so I guess they have priority on the bookings. Also, people go to Scotland to play links courses, the Duke's is not a links so it might be put away for that reason

[Michael Dugger]

It isn't on the rota because it doesn't have great golf.  I liked the front nine a lot, but the back nine lets it down significantly.

Hey Slag.  We Oregonians must be suckers for naturalistic looking golf courses, eh?   Why do we both think it looks so great?

Is it the lacey-edged bunkers....or the purdy trees?

On a lighter note......

What is the back nine let down about, Chris?  I am curious to hear what are the golf course's shortcomings?

Besides not being a links course. (which isn't necessarily a shortcoming)

[Norbert P]

 Thanks for the great link Michael - I didn't find a dull hole among that slideshow.  Why do we like it? Well, for one, it's not a mud pit (I played 9 at Broadmoor last week - splatter mayhem). Beats our nearby muni winter selection with ease.
When I was travelling Aussie I was constantly amazed at the high quality of their lesser(?), or at least, unheralded golf courses, which I was thrilled to play.

Chris, if you would, what brings it down from greatness?  It looks terrific.  I especially liked frames 17 and 18 (don't know the hole #). I like that little bunker on the right front of the green that seems barely visible from the longer shot. Also, from the picture, it looks like a Redanish green contour.  

[Marty Bonnar]

It's kind of interesting that all of this 'New Crinkliness' is finding its way into the Home of Golf.

The Castle and the revamped Dukes together will go a long way to introducing the great unwashed scottish golfing public to the pleasures of the crinkle.

As greens convenors and committees come to experience this new design ideal, I predict a movement towards the re-modelling of many of the homeland's old courses with 'the frills'.

Maybe I will eventually make my fame and fortune as the nation's homegrown foremost purveyor of the frilly...

Someone please pass me my cravat and walking cane.

FBD.

[Adam Clayman]

No wonder it looks amazing. Dan Proctor just returned from working on a green or two over there. And, this wasn't his first time at this course.

[Philippe Binette]

The new holes 15,16,17 and 18 really, I mean really really, improved the course

[Bart Bradley]

Fellas:

Played Dukes last summer.  I liked it.  Why doesn't it get more attention?  In my opinion, it is because I flew all the way to Scotland to play HISTORIC, LINKS courses.  There are plenty of courses in the US that resemble (in style and quality) the Dukes course.  It is nice...here are two of my pics....




Bart

[Brian_Ewen]

Philippe
You will never convince me thats a really really better finishing hole than the original .

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=24097;start=msg444308

[Norbert P]

Here's the Kohler website on Dukes . . .

http://oldcoursehotel.kohler.com/golf/dukes_landing.html

Brian Ewen, I don't know how you found that thread but damn my computer-generated ADD, it was terrific. If ever there was an old thread (really only 1 1/2 years old) that should be read in its entirety, with pictures that can be compared to some grow-in, that was it. It has cameos by MacWood, Tommy Nac, ForkaB, and a great Tom Paul slant on bunker building for the sole purpose of burning peat to keep warm.  Hilarious and timeless stuff in there.  Also is interesting in that it is heavy with Scottish opinion. Can't get enough of that.

 I really wish I had been Copy + Pasting quotes but really, it should be read in context.

  About the course, the only thing that bothers me is the cart paths and tee "boxes", though I'm sure they're only garish because of the aerial camera perspectives.

  I really enjoy the style of the new but can appreciate the placements of the simpler old bunkers presented.

[Brian Phillips]

The new holes 15,16,17 and 18 really, I mean really really, improved the course

Philippe,

I agree 100%.  I walked the course last autumn and think everybody involved has done a great job.

[Mark Bourgeois]

It's kind of interesting that all of this 'New Crinkliness' is finding its way into the Home of Golf.

The Castle and the revamped Dukes together will go a long way to introducing the great unwashed scottish golfing public to the pleasures of the crinkle.

As greens convenors and committees come to experience this new design ideal, I predict a movement towards the re-modelling of many of the homeland's old courses with 'the frills'.

Maybe I will eventually make my fame and fortune as the nation's homegrown foremost purveyor of the frilly...

Someone please pass me my cravat and walking cane.

FBD.

Hey, Martin, I clicked on your ads and picked up 100 tabs of V$AGRA -- totally free!  Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

[Norbert P]

 From June of 2006 . . .

Regarding the 12th hole . . .
Before . . .

Immediately After . . .

... to me the older photo looks more natural than the newer bunker. Perhaps with time, the newer one will soften a bit. But the loss of that land, and replacing it with flat sand, that seems not just unnatural, but less fun to play as well.

George, you posed an interesting question for that hole, and a prophetic one for the whole course.  

(BTW . . . Please bribe Punxatawny Phil with a carrot for an early Spring)

Tim Liddy . . . why'd you add the telephone poles.  Going for the pre-cell phone old look, are ye

[Brian_Ewen]

Mr Bandoon
I actually get embarrassed looking at old threads that I have erm.. participated in .

BTW , I have played the course three times since that old post , and I do think the course has come on loads since then .

But there is still plenty I dont like  

[Brian_Ewen]

I don't know if they work on the drainage but in summer you'll probably get firm and fast conditions which would make the course play better, it might be soft in the winter though.

Philippe
If the course is going to play fast and firm , would the design of the old 12th not fit better , and be a more interesting play ?

[Norbert P]

 I can't seem to find a new 12th from a similar angle.  Any help would help all.

BTW Brian,  . . . I probably shouldn't speak for everyone here, but I think we can all relate to some level of regret of past statements. Your's here would not make the Worst Of . . . by a long shot. In fact they're quite iinsightful in an antitrend-chasing sort of way.

As an aside . . . here's a link to Tim Liddy Interview . . . " in the year 2000. "

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewliddy.html                    

                             

[Brian_Ewen]

The last time I was there , the rumour in the Clubhouse was of a new course being built next door to the Dukes .

I have heard nothing since .

Anybody ?

[Philippe Binette]

Brian Ewen said:
Philippe
You will never convince me thats a really really better finishing hole than the original .

Brian, the 18th hole before was a 400 yards par 4 going flattish for 200 yards and then 100 feet up on the last 200 yards to one of the worst  green I've ever seen. Basically, the hole was one of the worst I've ever seen.

As far as the 12th hole, the front of the green is definitely not flat right now, there is all sort of smaller contours that makes the ground play interesting. Before it was a steep bank leading into collection area with catch bassin, soft at the bottom, firm on top is not that good for ground play

[Norbert P]

Whooooaahh. Well I'll be. I was utterly fooled by the Hole 12  pictures. It seems that the fronting bunker is really several yards (maybe 20ish) from the green, and not on it's green slope.  Was I the only one hornswoggled?  

The 12th hole now (photo captured from Kohler website)

So, assuming that the green contours were not reworked, the hole still plays as Peter Thompson envisioned, except for the visual distance trick.    

(From the website) . . .

"PAR 3    Double Dike
This uphill par 3 demands proper club selection to a slightly elevated green with a false front. The sand bunkers short centre creates an illusion that the green is closer than it is."




 


 

[RJ_Daley]

It seems to me by the photos that The Dukes course has a similar flavor to Bandon Trails.  Is that a fair comparison?  The somewhat clumpy looking grassy islands in their infancy should soften and look more naturalistic in time.  I don't think that is so unlike clumpy sedges and reedy grasses found in a bog or inland wetland area.  

I think that Liddy and friends had a vision that they pitched to old man Kohler, and he bought into it, and in my mind from the look of the comparative pictures, made a much more compelling course in terms of look, and more strategy to play among the added hazards.  I can't tell what factor width does or doesn't play in terms of variables of shots from alternative routes to holes.  I fellow really needs to play it a few times to get that sense, IMHO.

But, I also wonder if the more Aussie approach to bunker design, and maintenance would work in this terrain.  How far off is this terrain from that found at Kingston Heath, or RM?  

[Mike Erdmann]

While the 'new' Dukes Course looks fantastic with all of the purty bunkering, I didn't find the course all that special.  I came away somewhat disappointed, finding the greens rather uninteresting and the course itself not a whole lot different than a bunch of decent-but-not-great courses back here on this side of the pond.  Its inevitable that the Dukes course will suffer by comparison to the nearby links courses of St. Andrews, but while a pleasant course with nice views, I can't imagine choosing to play the Dukes again vs. all of the other great links courses within just a few miles.

[Norbert P]

It seems to me by the photos that The Dukes course has a similar flavor to Bandon Trails.  Is that a fair comparison?  

  Bandon Trails is an intricate layout with well-conceived greensites, often in the trees but never with corridors like Dukes seems to have, but Dukes does have a similar bunkering style.  

  Mike, I was reading James Finegan's report on Dukes in his Scotland book last night and he conversed with Peter Thompson around the course and Peter mentioned that he liked generous flat areas on greens.  So definitely Bandon Trails is different in that aspect.

  So, Dukes is a looker? But, lazy in the  . . . ahp! phone ringing . . .

[Mike Erdmann]

Slag,

There's really no comparison to Bandon Trails, other than the obvious comparison that they're both in a forested setting with frilly bunkers and in close proximity to links courses.  Bandon Trails has all sorts of great movement in the fairways and the greens, but the Dukes course has neither.