Travis List from Travis Society (with questions answered by Ed Homsey)

[michael_j_fay]

This is a wonderful list.

I've enjoyed every Travis Course I have ever played. The Ekwanok Club in Manchester, VT is absolutely the finest course in the Green Mountain State. I believe that on the weekend they still allow only 2-ball play between 8:00-10:00 on the weekends.

I am interested to see how much work Ross and Travis did together. I know that I have difficulty differentiating between Ross and Travis.

Two of the Travis/Ross courses that I have played recently are Camden CC and Youngstown CC. Both are brilliant although Camden could use a chainsaw. Two very worhty opponents.

Travis was the master of the small plot. Cape Arundel can't be bigger than 100 acres, Camden is tight as is Onandaga.
The Hollywood CC in Deal, NJ is a great layout. The course abuts a Donald Ross design (redesign) Deal Country Club.

The Norwich Municipal in Norwich, CT was once listed as a Ross design, we have no record of Ross's involvement. Pete Jones looked into the matter and found the course was built by Tull and Tull, Construction Co. years before they actually got into golf design. Pete and I concluded that Norwich was designed  by Travis. It is a very good small tract golf course,sporty with tough greens.

Nice work on the list. Thanks.

[wsmorrison]

Ed/Ian,

Thank you so much for the clarification of Philadelphia Country Club versus Philadelphia GC or Pennsylvania GC.  So Travis visited a proposed site for Philadelphia Country Club in 1924 and considered it unsuitable for golf.  You mentioned that PCC went ahead with their plans.  I wonder if you mean that they went ahead and built their course in the same location as where Travis considered it; Gladwyne, where it exists today.  

Flynn came up with his final designs for the present Spring Mill course in November 1925.  It was considered a significant course in its day but was remodeled slightly for the 1939 US Open.  Maxwell redid a number of greens in their original locations several years later as the greens were not properly constructed and settled causing a lot of short balls to funnel off the greens.  The Maxwell greens subsequently required reworking as well.  Flynn did the work prior to the Open.

[Ian Andrew]

MORE FROM ED

could you post a reply for me to replay #23 that states:  john duncan dunn was a consultant with travis at cape arundel gc.

we assumed that dunn was involved with travis for some time until we obtained 'the history of cape arundel golf club of kennebunkport' by george a. douglas, published in 2001.  the bulk of douglas's book was made up of quotes from the ogunquit and kennebunkport bulletin.  no place is dunn's name mentioned.  seems strange that his name would be omitted given the kind of extreme detail you find the the bulletin's acccounts.  tull is identified as the contractor and merrill as the foreman.

based on what appeared to be detailed and comprehensive coverage of the 'renaissance' of cape arundel, with no mention of dunn, we dropped his name from the listing.  the only place we've seen dunn's name associated with arundel was in the cornish/whitten book.  though their travis listing was a great starting point for us, it has proven to be unreliable in several instances.  again, if anyone has documentation that confirms dunn's involvement at arundel, please let me know.

ed

[Mike_Cirba]

I find this description extremely interesting;

"the links is a nine-hole course, "accessible from all points on the mountains" and "laid out by walter j. travis.

At the time, the Poconos were just beginning to be developed as a destination and just coincidentally, Mount Pocono is built at the juncture of what then were the two main (and probably only) north/south and east/west roads.

It's also nine holes.

[Chris_Blakely]

My response to Ed:

Here is a link to Bob Labbance's Feature interview and in his response to question #18 what was Travis' relationship with John Duncan Dunn, Labbance replied:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewlabbance.html

 In 1899, even before Travis had won his first U.S. Amateur, he was asked by his friend James Taylor to design Ekwanok Country Club. Travis felt he needed to legitimatize his involvement in a field where he had no experience. He asked Dunn-whose father had designed dozens of courses in Scotland-to accompany him to Vermont and help with the project. Dunn provided his input, then returned to New York, but Travis remained for a month directing the construction of the course and planning in the field without drawings or plans. Travis respected the Dunn family for their roots that went back generations in Scottish golf and maintained a friendship with John Duncan.

After the Travis win in 1900, and successful defense of the Amateur title the following year, Travis didn't need anyone to partner with to sanction his qualifications-his services were in demand regardless of his affiliations. Travis included Dunn in another project 20 years later when he invited him to  consult on the design of Cape Arundel in Kennebunkport, Maine, and the two remained cordial throughout their careers, though I don't believe they chummed around together.

I guess that is two location's where Dunn's name is mentioned.

[Kyle Harris]

Ed, I'll e-mail you the two Philadelphia Inquirer articles that link Travis to Cobb's Creek.  Here is the text from this reference:

Headline: It Happened in Golfland; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Philadelphia Inquirer, published as The Philadelphia Inquirer; Date: 12-19-1915; Volume: 173; Issue: 172; Page: [16]; Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

An article by Verdant Greene:



Note, some on this site don't think this is strong evidence at all.  I politely disagree.  Verdant Greene wrote in a different style and this paragragh, by my interpretation, suggests VG is making the claim about knowing where Travis has been since the mentioned tourney, not the reader relaying second hand info.

Joe,

I think this is most definitely a lead, but not conclusive nor strong evidence.

Yes, the style is different, but that still doesn't lead us to the meaning. It's possible that the reader had heard about Travis working on the public courses and was asking Mr. Greene. Until that can be proven otherwise, this is not conclusive.

You may also point out the position of Cobb's Creek in relation to the other courses, but this to me is of non-significance as the Philadelphia paper would naturally list the Philadelphia projects first.

I think prudence would dictate further following up on this lead with other papers. Following up with the New York papers, for me, would be the next step.

All the following questions remain unanswered:

How much work did Travis put into Cobb's?
What did Travis contribute or suggest?
Did Travis take any credit for work, or speak of his time at Cobb's?

Until any of that can be answered, we have nothing more than a lead - like a trail of footprints from a crime scene.

[Mike_Cirba]

I don't want to take away from the discussion of Travis, but there are two separate sources claiming that he was spending "most of his time"  and "a good deal of his time lately"  "especially at Cobb's Creek" is pretty telling and there is absolutely no reason to believe this means anything than exactly what it says..

If the Philly newspaper wanted to engage in sensationalistic localism, then I think Pine Valley was the much more dramatic lead.  It is also known that he visited with George Crump at this time, so he was definitely in town and it wouldn't seem too much a flight of fancy to imagine he went up to CC with Crump to visit Wilson, et.al. who were trying to get that project completed.   Remember, at this time Wilson was supposedly spending six months on the project and Crump's friend Ab Smith was spending all his Sunday's working on the construction.

It should also be noted that CC was originally supposed to open in the fall of 1915.   These articles were written in 12/15 and 1/16, so it's a really good bet that he was helping to get the course to a finished state, which eventually opened in May.

[Kyle Harris]

I don't want to take away from the discussion of Travis, but there are two separate sources claiming that he was spending "most of his time"  and "a good deal of his time lately"  "especially at Cobb's Creek" is pretty telling and there is absolutely no reason to believe this means anything than exactly what it says..

If the Philly newspaper wanted to engage in sensationalistic localism, then I think Pine Valley was the much more dramatic lead.  It is also known that he visited with George Crump at this time, so he was definitely in town and it wouldn't seem too much a flight of fancy to imagine he went up to CC with Crump to visit Wilson, et.al. who were trying to get that project completed.   Remember, at this time Wilson was supposedly spending six months on the project and Crump's friend Ab Smith was spending all his Sunday's working on the construction.

It should also be noted that CC was originally supposed to open in the fall of 1915.   These articles were written in 12/15 and 1/16, so it's a really good bet that he was helping to get the course to a finished state, which eventually opened in May.

Mike,

I'm not convinced. This sort of back page poorly-edited copy must stand some rigorous scrutiny. I also don't really consider them all that much of seperate sources, especially since they were written under pen names. Let's see what else is out there before we going throwing around attributions.

Don't you find it strange that the list does not include the course at Halloween Park or Cobb's Creek, but does Pine Valley?

Either Travis was very quiet about some of his more philanthropic work, or there's not much to talk about with it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

We discussed Halloween Park previously here.

It was built in Stamford CT, evidently right on the shore.  The course was only something like 2300 yards, because that's all they gave Travis to work with.  

How is this attribution...especially one that says he spent "a good deal of time" and "most of his time lately", "ESPECIALLY at Cobb's Creek", "assisting in the laying out" somehow more dubious than the two articles we have mentioning that George Crump was part of the GAP Committee that was charged with finding the site for Cobbs Creek, and then a later attribution mentioning he was one of the men who laid out the course??

Kyle, perhaps Ian or others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the listing of courses is not something Travis compiled, but something that is very much a research-oriented "work in progress", with new information surfacing regularly, as it has here recently.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

If you'll recall I was quite vocal in my skepticism of the Crump attribution and still am. Just as I am with the assumption that Tillinghast was the source of all the articles written.

I understand that the list is a work in progress, etc. But it must represent some more Travis focused research that may eventually key in on any involvement with Cobb's Creek and Halloween Park. Just want to hear what other sources and papers have to say about it, if anything.

I'm not saying Travis wasn't involved, I just want a firmer based from which to jump into that pool.

[Ian Andrew]

FROM ED HOMSEY

it was really a great idea to post our travis list on that site.  i welcome the close scutiny that it will receive from others.  has certainly generated some great discussion, eh?
 
one of the posts raised question about essex county cc.  i'm checking that out and will get back with something.  i'm fairly sure that bob labbance discussed essex in the old man.
 
i really appreciated the comments by michael fay.  i agree with his statement that it is sometimes difficult to tell difference between ross and travis course.  cc of buffalo is an instance of that.  they spent a lot of time together in pinehurst, playing golf, and i'm assuming, talking about golf course design.  there was a reference to norwich.  i have some correspondence between tull and travis that i will review.  i think it will shed some light on norwich.
 
tony pioppi is right re misquamicut.  it should be listed in a category other than 'consultation'.  we listed the unbuilt louisville cc course that he designed.  will give that some thought.  indirectly, tony got us the correspondence re misquamicut.  bob labbance passed it on to us.  that was a terrific find.  we may decide to put it under remodelling.  i think that's what travis would do--if there was a golf course there prior to his work.
 
in another post, mike cirba raises question about a column that ran in the american golfer.  he wondered if it was travis speaking.  i'll do some review of that.  generally speaking, travis identified his columns as being from him, or the editor.  there were other columns that he identified as his writings.  again, i'll check it out.
 
thanks for the opportunities to make these comments.

[Ian Andrew]

also from ED HOMSEY

re reply#29 who quoted bob labbance's interview concerning the relationship between travis and dunn, as it relates to cape arundel.  i stand by our current conclusion regarding dunn's role at cape arundel.  there is no evidence for it.  on the other hand, i do not dispute bob's description of the relationship between travis and dunn.  it was close and vital to travis's entry into golf course architecture at ekwanok.  it was very smart of travis to bring dunn in on that project, and to benefit from his expertise.

but, you are right.  i had said that cornish/whitten was the only reference to the travis/dunn partnership at arundel.  in fact, in addition to bob labbance's interview, there is also the listing in his book, the old man.
so, there are three such referents.  i haven't discussed this with bob, but will do so to see if he has any source that documents dunn's involvement at arundel other than cornish/whitten.  keep in mind that our goal is accuracy.

in re to reply #33.  i couldn't agree more.  the current travis listing is a work in progress.  it has changed every year since we started it in 1995.
there are changes that will be included in the 2009 listing, e.g. longue vue is nla; westchester hills will likely be reinstated based on recent information.

it is great having the listing out there for the scrutiny of everyone.

[Chris_Blakely]

Reply to post #36 / Ed Homsey:

My goal would is to have any course be attributed to the designers that worked on it.  I simply figured if C&W and Travis' biographer Bob Labbance made a reference to J.D. Dunn, there must be something there.  After reading your response, it looks you might feel the same way and are going to check in to it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

"American Golfer" was Travis's magazine.

According to Ed at the Travis Society, he sees it as quite significant that he saw fit to list those courses there, as it was rare for him to trumpet any of his own work.

Given that he was hanging 'round Crump at the time, do you think he would have said he was doing work at Cobb's and PV if it wasn't true, in his own magazine?!?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

"American Golfer" was Travis's magazine.

According to Ed at the Travis Society, he sees it as quite significant that he saw fit to list those courses there, as it was rare for him to trumpet any of his own work.

Given that he was hanging 'round Crump at the time, do you think he would have said he was doing work at Cobb's and PV if it wasn't true, in his own magazine?!?

I thought the mentions were in the Philadelphia papers?

Do you have the American Golfer blurbs? I agree, that would be significant.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

My mistake...I misread his message to me.  

I'll still hold onto "most of his time recently" as significant enuff.  

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

My mistake...I misread his message to me.  

I'll still hold onto "most of his time recently" as significant enuff.  

So, who was writing in the Bulletin then?

[Art Roselle]

FROM ED HOMSEY

i really appreciated the comments by michael fay.  i agree with his statement that it is sometimes difficult to tell difference between ross and travis course.

What about Pinehurst itself?  Has the Society uncovered anything new about Travis's role in Pinehurst?  In his book on Ross, Bradley Klein cites a quote from American Golfer where Travis claims some credit for the bunkering and design of No. 2.  Any truth to that?

"Interestingly, Walter J. Travis, in a 1920 article in American Golfer, claimed credit for turning a dull, lifeless No. 2 Course into a well-bunkered strategic gem.  Back in 1906, he said, he convinced Leonard Tufts, James Tuft's son, and then Ross, of the merits of his plan.  This was no small boast, though there's no evidence to confirm his account - and none, as well, to refute it." - Discovering Donald Ross, Bradley Klein, pg. 75

[Ian Andrew]

MORE FROM ED

In an earlier posting, a question was raised about Essex County Golf Club in MA.  As I remembered, Bob Labbance gave quite a bit of attention to Essex in The Old Man.  Check it out on pgs 135-136.  This was a project where he was joined by John Duncan Dunn.

re the Cape Arundel listing.  As you recall, Chris Blakely raised questions about not crediting John Duncan Dunn with having helped out there.  As promised, I talked with Bob Labbance yesterday, told him of the issue, and reminded him of his statements in his GCA interview.  Bob has much more important things on his mind right now, but his reply was, "Your information is more current than what I had at the time."  He recalled that it was very difficult to nail down any Dunn involvement, though it was generally assumed that he was involved.  Ken Raynor, Director of Golf, at Arundel is a long time member of the Travis Society, and receives our Directory each time a new edition appears.  He has not raised any question about our leaving Dunn off the Arundel listing, and I can't recall if I discussed it with him.  If I didn't, I should have.  I'll ask for his thoughts.

Art raised a questions about Travis's involvement at Pinehurst and quotes from Brad Klein's book on Ross.  The 1920 American Golfer article that Klein refers to is the  key source that led us to include Pinehurst #2 under "Consultation".  The specific article is from a series of Travis autobiographical articles that were published in the American Golfer in 1920.  This was the Oct. 9, 1920 issue.  Some might say that Travis made some audacious claims relative to his influence on Ross and the remodelling of Pinehurst #2.  As Labbance pointed out in The Old Man, and Klein in his book, no record has been found of any attempt to refute the Travis claims.
In addition to that article, there is a 1904 Golf magazine item that reports Travis's recommendation to lengthen the first hole on #2.  A 1908 special issue of The Pinehurst Outlook carries an extensive statement by Travis in which he reviews in detail his opinion of their new course.  Given the date, he may have been talking about #3.  No where in this article did he imply any involvement on his part.  If there is anyone who would like a copy of the 1920 Travis article, put your request in through travissociety@yahoo.com.  of course, if you just join the society, I'll make sure that article is among the packet of articles that you'll receive as a new member.

Thanks to Joe Bausch, I've had an opportunity to examine up close the two Philadelphia Inquirer items that link Travis to Cobbs Creek and Halloween Park.  The 1916 item states "At Stamford, the veteran [referring to Travis] put in a day mapping out the ground and has reported to the Park Commission.
He state that while the links could not be long, it would prove decidedly attractive."  That sounds pretty convincing to me.  It would be great to get some confirmation from an early Stamford paper; I'll pursue that.  Re Cobb's Creek, I'd be inclined to put it under 'consultation'.  In the future, I think we should include a disclaimer for the "consultation" listings.  Some of those are based on magazine or newspaper items with little, or no, additional documentation.

Ed Homsey

[Ian Andrew]

If there is anyone who would like a copy of the 1920 Travis article, put your request in through travissociety@yahoo.com.  of course, if you just join the society, I'll make sure that article is among the packet of articles that you'll receive as a new member.

For those interested, the society is a whopping $20. to join, George Bush Sr. did.

[Ian Andrew]

ONE MORE FROM ED

I checked out the 1912 Eastern Pennsylvania Notes article in The American Golfer by "Far and Sure".  That is not Travis writing.  The style is not his, and the content suggests that it was someone much more familiar with the Philadelphia area than Travis is likely to have been.  I'm not convinced that it wasn't Tillinghast, though as suggested by one posting, he probably was the one who wrote under "Hazard".  Bob Labbance and I have talked often about the pseudonyms used in The American Golfer.  In Bob's extensive research for The Old Man, he was unable to solve the mystery, and speculated that "whenever it suited his fancy, Travis took on another name and let the doctrine fly".

Ed Homsey

[Dan Moore]

Ian,

Thank you for hosting this list.  I have found it very informative.  Travis deserves all the acclaim he gets and probably deserves more for his contribution to architecture and popularizing the game.

I'm curious about the consulation at Chicago Golf in 1916.  Travis played in several tournaments there.  What did he do for the club?  Was he on site in 1916?  Are there any documents?  

[Ian Andrew]

dan,

re chicago golf club.  the information on travis's involvement at chicago gc is very sketchy.  a 1916 golf illustrated item that stated that travis had been asked to provide some suggestions for improvement of the chicago course while there for a visit.  no indication as to what he may have suggested, or whether it was carried out.


Ed Homsey

[Mike_Cirba]

I find this description extremely interesting;

"the links is a nine-hole course, "accessible from all points on the mountains" and "laid out by walter j. travis.

At the time, the Poconos were just beginning to be developed as a destination and just coincidentally, Mount Pocono is built at the juncture of what then were the two main (and probably only) north/south and east/west roads.

It's also nine holes.

I'm now almost certain that the Mount Pocono Golf Course referenced above on this thread is in fact the one designed by Travis and opened in 1904.

The Library of Congress articles that Peter Pallotta led us to include a number of references to the course that opened in 1904, as well as other Travis attributions.

Most telling is an article that describes the links being regularly in use by residents of four area hotels, all of which are NLE.   They included the Montanesca, the Mount Pleasant House, the Pocono Mountain House, and the Fair View House.

For a long time I was confused because I assumed from another source that the course was on the grounds of the "Pocono Mountain House", which was about 1.5 miles away from the course.   In fact, as Joe found out two days ago, there WAS a first golf course associated with this house and probably on the grounds built in 1901, and attributed to "W.B. Pierce, the golf expert from Philadelphia".   But, it doesn't seem like it lasted long because the new Mount Pocono Country Club was planned by Travis in late 03 and opened in 04, and shortly after came the article showing play from multiple inns.   

Today I read an article from 1907 that talked about an automobile shuttle service newly available to the golf links from the "Pocono Mountain House", so it's clear that residents there were already using the brand new links.

However, the biggest new clue is simply finding that the "Mount Pleasant House" was right exactly across the street from the site of today's golf course, where the Burger King and Bank are, just south across the highway in question, as seen in the lower right hand corner of the following aerial;

[Mike_Cirba]

Looking at this aerial from 1939 that shows more of the southwest corner, the large, centrally located structure of the "Mount Pleasant House" is much in view;