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Tommy Williamsen

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Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2008, 11:17:22 AM »
Pat, you have played Seminole more than I have, especially since I saw your name on a winner board in the locker room, but I would venture to say that some of the Pinehurst courses also favor higher handicappers. Pine Needles and Pinhurst 1 and 5 fall into that category.  Pine Needles may offer more of a challenge to the 5 handicapper than say #1 at Pinhurst.  I am also not sure how much Ross is left.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2008, 11:52:42 AM »
Tommy,

I always liked the stepchildren courses at Pinehurst, but, do they have the broad appeal across the entire spectrum of the amateur golfer, from 0 on up ?

Having my name on a Tournament Board in the Seminole locker room is one of the thrills of my life.  I only wish my dad, who first took me there in the very early 60's, was around to see it.

There's an awful lot of great names in golf on those boards and I'm lucky to be there.

Wayno,

Getting off an airplane and playing a north wind is difficult.

To answer your question, TE has the ability to score well, so his round of 70 is well within his abilities.

But, how many times do we see a PGA Tour Pro high up on the leader board one week, and missing the cut the next, or vice versus.

I'm sure that tournament jitters and TE's sudden introduction to the pace of those greens the first day had something to do with it.

Shooting 70 under tournament conditions at Seminole is a fabulous accomplishment, even for an Idiot-Savant. ;D

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2008, 12:07:46 PM »
"Tom,
What accounted for the extra 20 shots the first day?  I imagine for there to be that much of a stroke differential, it had to be that nothing was working that day.  Did you play the first day in more difficult conditions?  
I guess what I'm trying to get at, is there something about the architecture or set-up of Seminole itself (a course I've never seen) versus another course you may have played those two days that had something to do with the scoring differential?"


Wayne:

Here's what I think happened and why there was such a scoring differential between those two days.

First of all, you have to take my word for it---I was definitely not hitting the ball as well the second day as I did the first when I shot 90. Maybe close but still not better. On both days I missed a pretty good amount of greens not the least reason we were playing both days in some pretty good wind.

Add to that, that on the first day I felt like Seminole would play something like the way I'd always known it but that just wasn't the case. It didn't look that different to me but the setup had the course really firm and fast throughout and some really tough front pins and frankly I'd never played anything quite like that anywhere (that may've been the first time I ever saw what I years later came to call the "Ideal Maintenance Meld").

So on the first day I was trying stuff that seemed OK to me and I was pulling the shots off the way I thought I should but I was constantly getting screwed---ie what I thought were good recoveries rolling right off the fronts of greens or into bunkers or whatever. Even what I thought were good putts from above some pins weren't working. That kind of visualized execution that doesn't work with a setup is going to cost you a ton of shots and it did the first day.

The next day that caddie of mine (who wasn't all that talkative remarkably) just jumped right in there right on the first hole and he talked to me about what I should try to do before I visualized any shot.

At first I probably thought it was a bit counter-intuitive but it sure didn't take me long to see how right he was when it just worked hole after hole.

This kind of thing pretty much just falls into the realm of "course management" which I view as intelligence and psychological (how to pre-plan a shot before you hit it) and not really physical.

I think this is the single area that most all handicap golfers just don't understand at all much less appreciate well enough. In other words they're constantly TRYING TO DO the wrong things and when they actually pull off the shot they visualize and it doesn't work at all they wonder why.  ;)

And because of that I think most all handicap golfers have no real idea how different some really tough firm and fast setups can be. I don't think they realize that very well for the simple reason they actually play them so rarely.

I really don't think that huge 22 shot differential had anything much to do with some difference from the first day to the second with my physical shot making, it all had to do with a very different course management.

I know it sounds strange but I think that caddie essentially saved me around 22 shots almost on his own.

It sure taught me a lesson, and I think it served me really well in the future in tournaments and setups like the Crump Cup. Most don't understand how defensively you sometimes have to THINK on courses like those setup that way.

This is also the area that I think all tour pros and such understand so much better than most amateurs. Those elite players may not hit everything just like they want to but before they decide what shot to hit they understand what NOT to try to do so much better than most amateurs.

 
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 12:13:07 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2008, 08:57:46 PM »
TEPaul,

Factoring in margins of error is a critical component of course management.

Missing long on # 2 and # 11 and a number of holes can be disastrous.

With many front hole locations you can be far better off short of the green, than on it and above the hole.

HC didn't 6 putt # 18 because he's a bad golfer

It's a course where "thought" is usually well rewarded even if the execution is lacking.

JESII

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Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2008, 09:17:19 PM »
TEP,

I call that "whole hole planning".


Pat,

It's HK.

Adam_Messix

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Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2008, 09:35:21 PM »
I really appreciate this thread as it has made me think through every single hole on the course and how wind and particular hole locations can dramatically effect the way the course plays.  You must really hit quality golf shots to shoot a decent score even when there is little wind as those greens don't hold a mishit shot.  Shots into the greens were either leaving a small indentation or no ball mark at all.

With this said, the last time I played Seminole I played with two gentlemen who were over 75 years old who were sub three handicaps at one point in life and they could still bump the ball around, make pars and have a good time.  

That to me is why it's Ross' best for amateurs.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2008, 09:35:54 PM by Adam_Messix »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2008, 11:15:45 AM »
JES II,

I call him by his first name and bifurcate it.

As in "Hard Core" ;D

Adam,

I think you bring up a good point.
The membership at Seminole isn't comprised of teenagers.
Like many clubs it's an older membership with a good deal of women's play.

If the golf course wasn't accomodating to the broad spectrum of golfers, those folks wouldn't be out there in number, time and time again.

When you mentioned the elderly members playing, it reminded me of how many you see traversing the fairways.

People get to a certain stage in life where they don't want to play a golf course that beats them up.

Seminole provides a fun challenge and an examination of one's game and character.  Isn't that what golf's all about ?

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2008, 03:34:58 PM »
"Missing long on # 2 and # 11 and a number of holes can be disastrous.
With many front hole locations you can be far better off short of the green, than on it and above the hole."


Pat:

Interesting you say that about holes #2 and #11. Rather amazing actually because when I think of that first round and the disastrous 90 the first image I have of that round is recovering out of the greenside bunkers on those two holes. In both cases I hit what I thought were good bunker shots and they would've been if the course played the way I remembered it.

But in both cases on that first Coleman round the ball just sort of trickled by the hole with not even so much as a "by your leave" and proceeded all the way off the green and way down into the fairway.

I distinctly remember the next day with that really good caddie on #2 he told me just to try to come up just short of the green. I thought that was pretty counter-intuitive and it was definitely something I'd never tried to do on purpose in tournament golf. But I managed to do it and make a nice chip for a tap-in par.

On the next hole he told me he felt the chances of me making a par from there was about five times better than if I'd been even six feet above that front pin.

Basically that first round was just a matter of the fact that I'd never played a course setup like that and it showed huge. It wasn't that I was hitting bad shots. I was doing what I thought I should and really getting screwed for it. It was definitely not a normal tournament for any of us, that's for sure and it was definitely the major subject of the tournament. A lot of guys were really critical.

The Coleman back then was one of those good amateur invitationals that was pretty stratified in that there was maybe ten players who were really good and competitive enough to win and then there was the rest of us even if practically everyone was scratch or better.

But the way I looked at Seminole's setup that time was for a guy like me playing a course setup like that compared to how it was normally was probably going to cost me ten shots a round more minimum where for a guy like John Harris who won it might go maybe two strokes higher per round.

That was an interesting time for Harris since the tournament was in early May. I think he just got his amateur status back and that was the first one he won as a reinstated amateur and then that year he went on and had a helluva year winning the US Amateur and maybe some others and doing great on the Walker Cup.

Speaking of great years, get this. I think this is true to say.

I was reading about Philadelphia's Max Marston in 1923. I think it was in Finegan's "The Centennial History of Philadephia Golf".

Marston started out his 1923 year by winning the Merion Club championship and then the big tournaments in Philly and then a bunch of other things including the US Amateur, and ending with complete Lesley Cup victories in the fall. That year I don't believe Marston lost a single match in anything.

He took out Jones on his way to winning the US Amateur and years later Jones said that match against Marston was the best golf from two opponents in his entire recollection.

Marston belonged to Gulph Mills too but apparently he didn't pay his bill on time and they threw him out!

Do you believe that? We threw out a US Amateur champion! I would've made the guy a honorary non-dues paying lifetime member for that.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 03:50:10 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2008, 03:44:39 PM »
Tom,

Getting above the hole can be a frightening and costly mistake.

My host was relating to how the pin was up front on # 2, and he hit it about 20 feet beyond the pin, which is a pretty good shot, normally.  He then told us how his approach putt was hit just a little too firm, rolling past the hole, off the green and down into the fronting bunker.

This of course left him with another dilema, try to get as close to the pin as possible, or wedge out short of the hole/pin and hope to two putt.

Thinking and margins play a huge role at Seminole, probably moreso than at most golf courses.

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2008, 03:51:31 PM »
Pat:

Read what I added in the post above about Max Marston.

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2008, 03:59:34 PM »
Pat:

You know I remember now how much most of those players thought that Seminole setup was totally excessive, almost stupid really. A lot of guys shot a million but I don't think it was excessive anymore. It's amazing how times and opinions change.

But I'll tell you one thing that extreme setup did and accomplished----the known and expected cream of that field went to the top in a hurry and all the rest of the "sour milk" players in the field, like me, went straight to the bottom of the bottle!

I think that's the way it should be on a great course setup really challenging, including the really big scoring differential in the field.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2008, 04:00:38 PM »
TEPaul,

You've played Seminole quite a bit.
I think Adam's comment about the play of older members is quite revealing of the golf course's ability to accomodate golfers of all levels, especially under windy conditions, which most golfers find... hostile.

Those who stated that the course is too hard for the higher handicap would seem to have their argument refuted and rendered null and void by the extensive play of older, higher handicap golfers, golfers who return day after day to enjoy the challenge presented by the golf course and the elements.


Phil Benedict

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Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2008, 04:37:09 PM »
I've played quite a few Ross's, although the list unfortunately does not include Seminole.  A lot of them are friendly to a range of handicaps - no forced carries, open fronts to greens allowing runup shots and so forth.  My understanding is that Oak Hill and Oakland Hills are bears, probably because they have something close to the major championship set up all the time.

One thing that can be tough on high handicappers in elevated greens which favor a high ball which is often beyond the capability of the typical high handicapper.  Ross has quite a few of holes with elevated greens.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 04:39:44 PM by Phil Benedict »

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2008, 04:38:54 PM »
Pat:

As far as Seminole accommodating older players and higher handicappers of course it does. If it didn't I'm pretty sure that membership would do something to ensure that it did.

I played there a lot in the 1980s when my Dad was playing and compared to those Colemans the course was always maintained pretty tame, even for tournaments.

That all changed huge with the Coleman. I haven't played there in years but the members I know tell me the maintenance practices they regularly use now probably makes the course play at least twice as challenging as it did back in the 1980s.

It could always be a hard course to play with wind but back then you really never had to worry about balls just completely getting away from you on the greens the way I guess you do now.

You know one thing I don't know about Seminole is if or where they've added tee length in the last 10-12 years or so. Do you know?

The only other thing I should tell you about Seminole, Pat, that you apparently never realized is even if it doesn't seem so the course and the site is actually FLAT!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 04:42:23 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2008, 05:08:15 PM »
TEPaul & Phil,

The one thing that I forgot to mention, which is a major factor, is the benign nature of the rough.

In addition to wide fairways, the rough doesn't present a servere challenge to any golfer, and I think that's real plus on THAT golf course.

TE,

There's not a lot of room to add a lot of length at Seminole.

I think # 5 has been lengthened.

Maybe # 4, but, I'm not sure.
Maybe # 7 and # 9, but not substantively
# 11 possibly.

For the amateur, with the WIND, Seminole doesn't need much in the way of added length.  Without the wind, a case could be made for the need for adding length.

As to Seminole being declared as being flat, I seem to recall someone espousing that theory, even citing an alleged quote from Ross.

If that course is flat I sure wouldn't want to fall off the 7th or 11th tee.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 05:10:20 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Adam_Messix

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Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2008, 06:36:28 PM »
Pat--

The rough at Seminole is very short and the fairways are REALLY wide.  Bunkers more than make up for it though.  

Since I first visited there, there have been tees added/extended on #5, 9, 11 and 14.  There was a new one put in on 15 but it's been taken out.  There's room to move some tees back on Holes 4, 7, 9 and 11 but the course doesn't need the length.  

I wouldn't want to fall off the 7th tee either.  It's been my thought that Seminole is hilly by Florida standards.  
« Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 06:37:35 PM by Adam_Messix »

TEPaul

Re:Is Seminole the best Ross course for amateurs ?
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2008, 09:17:38 PM »
"The rough at Seminole is very short and the fairways are REALLY wide."

So glad to hear that. In that case, this is a golf club that is ahead of the curve, as they should be!  ;)

If I go down there I think I might have to introduce them to some of the subtler points of Max Behr. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.  ;)

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